Real Money, Real Experts

Moving Students Out of the Red and Into the Black

• AFCPE® • Season 1 • Episode 13

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This week, Real Money, Real Experts welcomes Shelby Henderson and Tiffany Murray from Texas Tech University's Red to Black® Peer to Peer Financial Coaching Program.

Co-hosts Rebecca Wiggins and Dr. Mary Bell Carlson talk to Tiffany and Shelby about the effectiveness of peer-to-peer programs, and the ripple effect that financial knowledge can have.

*Show Notes*
00:45 Intro Tiffany and Shelby
02:18 What is Red to Black®
06:11 Shelby's background as a student
07:58 Tiffany's career change
12:04: Students' biggest financial challenges
15:18 Knowledge Bowl
17:11 How more universities can make it work
22:06 Sitting for the AFC® as a student
26:52 Student success stories
30:19 Your Two Cents
34:43 Reflecting on the ripple effect

Show Links:

Texas Tech University’s Red to Black program: http://www.depts.ttu.edu/r2b/

Texas Tech’s Financial Planning Program: http://www.depts.ttu.edu/hs/pfp/

Student Financial Literacy: Campus-Based Program Development by Drs. Dottie Durband and Sonya Britt Lutter: https://www.amazon.com/Student-Financial-Literacy-Campus-Based-Development/dp/1461435048

Follow Red to Black on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/red-to-black/ 

AFCPE Symposium Registration: https://www.afcpe.org/symposium/

 AFC Certification Overview & Registration: https://www.afcpe.org/certification/accredited-financial-counselor/


Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!

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Intro:

Welcome to Real Money, Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rebecca Wiggins, Executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education®or AFCPE®. And I'm your cohost, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson. I'm an Accredited Financial Counselor®, or AFC®, and the CEO of Chief Financial Mom. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topic, fix the personal finance professionals care about: helping clients, building community and your professional growth. Welcome everyone to the Real Money, Real Experts podcast. I'm Rebecca. This is Mary. Thanks for taking the time to join us today. Today on the show we're talking with Tiffany Murray and Shelby Henderson, both from Texas Tech's Red to Black®Peer Financial Coaching Program. Tiffany is an AFC®and is currently working towards her PhD in personal financial planning at Texas Tech University, where her research focus is collegiate financial wellness. She serves as the Program Director of the Nationally Recognized Red to Black®program. She's an ambassador for the department and a Student Liaison to the Alumni Advisory Board. She's also a mentor for Mentor Tech and a 2019-2020 TEACH Fellow. Shelby Henderson is a senior personal financial planning student at Texas Tech. She has been able to take the knowledge and skills that she's learned in the classroom and apply them during her time as a peer financial coach for Red to Black®. On top of the coaching, Shelby is also a Level Lead for the organization's financial advocates. We're really excited to have you both on to share more about your work.

Tiffany & Shelby:

Awesome. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Thanks for joining us today. There's a lot that you both are doing that we'd like to learn more about. I remember when I was working at Texas Tech on my master's degree, I too was a part of the Red to Black®program, but I'll be honest, that was when it was in its infancy. And you've brought the program so far in the last couple of decades. Please share with our listeners what the Red to Black®program is, how it got started and what your work entails.

Tiffany Murray:

Red to Black®Peer Financial Coaching is an organization with students who are pursuing personal financial planning degrees. It started back in 2001 with our founder, Dr. Dorothy Durband. We offer financial education, financial awareness, financial coaching to Texas Tech University students. And then we also get the opportunity to have the students who are pursuing those personal financial planning degrees, have the chance to take the knowledge that they've gotten in their classrooms and work towards delivering that information to our fellow students. And so we have definitely grown. We're excited about where we are and also excited about the future.

Mary Bell Carlson:

So it sounds like there's really two phases of the program. One would be kind of an outreach phase where you're talking in classrooms or in other large group settings. And the other one is individual-based where you get more of a peer to peer association.

Tiffany Murray:

In our organization we have different levels. And so our students are able to join as financial advocates, financial educators, and financial coaches. And so our advocates are the students who help us reach out to the TTU students, the Texas Tech students to let them know about our organization, to encourage them to come and get a coaching session. Our financial educators are those students who go into the classrooms. Of course, this is pre-COVID going into the classrooms to deliver that financial education material that we have prepared. And then our financial coaches get the opportunity to actually sit with students and go over topics such as creating a spending plan, working with credit and debt, or maximizing financial aid. And so, again, it's just an opportunity for us to take the information that we've learned in the classrooms to help the TTU students so that our students are getting an opportunity to build on that knowledge and get it to a practical level. And then again, we're reaching out to the TTU students. So again, it's a two-fold situation where we're able to help Texas Tech students, but we're also able to help Texas Tech University personal financial planning students to build on the knowledge that they've gained in their classrooms.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Awesome. And Shelby, can you tell us a little bit more about your role as a Peer Financial Coach and the Level Lead for the financial advocates?

Shelby Henderson:

Yeah, so Tiffany mentioned in our three levels. one of the first ones you mentioned was our financial advocates and kind of their role to just promote our program as much as possible throughout the entire campus at Texas Tech. And the role I play for them is I'm just kind of the point of contact and when they have questions or when we're organizing an event, I let them know how many spots we need filled to be at a booth. And I think the biggest part in the lead is the training that I put together for our advocates, how I try to prep them as much as possible going into each semester with the words to say, and the confidence to speak to someone who's never heard of Red to Black®before. So one of the biggest things we practice is our elevator speeches, getting them prepped and ready to give that 10-15 second spiel of themselves and Red to Black®. My role was just someone that another student can talk to just through financial difficulties or uncertainties their life. So just being, I think the biggest thing is that I'm just a student just like them. But I'm studying the questions, the topics that they are wanting to learn more about or have questions about.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Awesome. And I'm curious what brought you to this particular program and even more about the field, and then even like, as you're looking at graduation in a few months, how would you say that this program has prepared you for your future career?

Shelby Henderson:

A lot of my peers at Texas Tech in this program, in the personal financial planning program, don't start out- this isn't our, wasn't our first major. A lot of us found it after starting something else then eventually finding it. So I always wanted to be in a helping profession, so I thought that was teaching my first semester at Texas Tech. And then I was like, I don't know if this is it. So I literally just started scrolling through the majors that Texas Tech offered and found financial planning and was like, well, I've never really heard of it before. My first Google search was, what jobs can you get with a financial planning degree? So I made, I just kind of liked what I saw. At first I thought it was just, Oh, you're behind you're in a desk. And you just crunch numbers, kind of like counting kind of idea. But after doing some more research, I just found that still being able to be people facing and problem solve with them, sold me on the major. And then about a year into, maybe a semester and a half, being into the program is when I noticed that there were organizations within the PFP department at Texas Tech, and I noticed one day Red to Black®was one of them. And I just figured that was the perfect way to practice while I'm still in school, and kind of perfect the way I go about conducting a session. And so fine tuning the people skills, what I knew, the knowledge part was kind of already there.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Tiffany, tell us how you became interested in the field of financial planning and what brought you to Texas Tech University.

Tiffany Murray:

I actually am coming from a rather different background than Shelby. This wasn't my first choice of a major. I actually got my undergraduate degree in economics and my master's degree in consumer sciences. And then I also met my husband at freshman orientation. And so we dated, we got married after we graduated. And so he graduated in film which got us out to California. And so I actually started my career with Countrywide Financial Corporation. And then, you know, the financial crisis hit around 2008. And so that moved me to Western Asset Management Company, which is an investment management firm. And so I worked there for several years and just got to a point where I was not exactly thrilled about getting up to go to work every morning. And so I know a lot of people, you know, may deal with this in their lives, but I just couldn't see myself continuing to do something that I wasn't happy about. So, I mean, definitely make good money, but at the end of the day, I wasn't happy about, you know, what I was doing in order to get that money. It just wasn't fulfilling to me. And so I prayed about it. And one of the things that kind of popped up in my spirit was financial planning. And so I was like, God, I don't know about this. This doesn't make any sense to me. And so I sat on it actually for another two years and then just decided to know, I just gotta do something and this is what I'm feeling. So let me just do it. And so I ended up going to UCLA to get my certificate for personal financial planning. And then I thought, Oh, I've got my certificate. I'm just going to jump on into the personal financial planning field and I'm going to do this, that and the other. And so it didn't work like that either. And so I wasn't able to find a good opportunity for working. And so I was like, okay, what else can I do? And so interestingly enough, my parents are actually retired teachers and I knew that I didn't want to do that. And so that's really kind of how I chose my major. I kind of ran away from that because of course, everybody wants to just like, make all of this big money and I was able to just figure out that that wasn't a thing for me. So I was like, okay, well, what else can I do? And so that's when I did my Google search similar to Shelby and just learned a little bit more about personal financial planning and what other opportunities were out there. And so I found Texas Tech as the number one PhD program in the country. And so I was intrigued and I looked, I looked into it, researched it and decided to apply and was so happy that I was accepted into the PhD program. And so that's what got me to Tech and that's what kind of moved me into personal financial planning. And so ultimately I am interested in taking this knowledge that I've gained to teach at the collegiate level. And so that's how I got here. That's my, those are my goals. I'm still working towards, you know, figuring things out, but that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Well, tell us how you became the director of Red to Black®and how you became associated with Red to Black®.

Tiffany Murray:

Absolutely. So again, similar to Shelby, I was looking for an opportunity to take my knowledge to share with fellow students. And so I applied in my first year of being here and came on as someone who did financial education presentations. And so at that time, there was a little transition, the director, then Dr. Dotty Durband, she had moved to Kansas State a few years prior to me coming to Texas Tech, but then came back and we had a good chance to talk about the organization and, you know, her vision and things that she was looking to do. And the opportunity came up for me to become the program director. As a student, I won't say it was the first thought that I had, but I was definitely excited about the opportunity to work towards moving the program forward.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Now, tell us both of you, I'd like to hear your experience on this, but what are some of the biggest challenges that students face when it comes to financial wellness?

Shelby Henderson:

I think some of the biggest ones I see is that when students come to college, it's the first time that they're on their own. And so they have to work through that, their personal finances for the first time maybe without any help. And so I think that is one of the biggest struggles that students see whenever they, that we see as coaches, here at Texas Tech. And I think it's just also the lack of just education previously, kind of when students take on loans or open a credit card, they don't really know what that kind of the fine print to everything. And so I think just not being fully educated on some of the things that they take on is their struggle.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Yeah. And so much debt in those early years that could really implicate many consequences for the rest of their lives. If they don't know how to handle it or take care of it at that point. Now, Tiffany tell us, how is Red to Black®empowering students to achieve their financial goals.

Tiffany Murray:

We work on those specific topics and we're excited to provide education around those concerns that our students have. And so whether it's helping them to create a spending plan- it's really a budget, but not everybody wants to hear the word budget, right. So we've tried to find a creative way to go about helping our students. And so it's really just providing them with direction and it's also just assisting them, right. So we're getting into the classrooms and we're also working towards having those coaching sessions around those types of topics, of, you know, budgeting and finding apps that work, or, you know, working to write down your expenses and your income and checking to see if on a month to month basis you you're doing okay financially, also working with credit and understanding what credit is and how to use it wisely. What a credit score is, how to go about reaching out to the three bureaus, and what they're looking at as far as when they're looking at your credit score. And then also, you know, what that debt that you talked about, the student loans that the students are taking on you know, helping them to understand, you know, how much they may need helping, to also understand that you may not need as much. And so, you know, you may have to turn some, some money down to ensure that, you know, after graduation, you don't have to pay back more than you should have taken. Also working through the students who received those funds at the beginning of the semester, and, you know, helping to guide them through the process. You have to let this money work for you for the whole semester, right? So you can't just spend it all at the beginning of the semester. And so again, it's just working to help students understand where they are financially so that we can ultimately help them get towards that financial wellness so that they feel comfortable about their, you know, where they stand financially. And, you know, again, all of the education that we can provide that we're providing that to them and that they have understanding.

Rebecca Wiggins:

I want to shift gears a little bit and congratulate you Shelby on being one of Texas Tech's team members for the first ever virtual Knowledge Bowl. Of course, we're going virtual this year for the 2020 Symposium. So I'm curious what you hope to learn from this Symposium experience being part of the Knowledge Bowl and just kind of what you're looking forward to with that.

Shelby Henderson:

Overall. I think I just want to absorb as much as possible, just with it being about a month before I graduate. I just want to take the time to sit down and just absorb as much information and kind of be- even in a virtual sense- just be present in sessions and in the Knowledge Bowl. And I think my favorite thing so far being on the team is just getting to deepen the connections that I have with the other two competitive, like the other two on my team and our alternate, I think spending hours on Zoom with them, even just preparing back in May, our application video and studying and everything. I think I've enjoyed that so much, just as one more thing I get to do before I graduate.

Rebecca Wiggins:

I think it's interesting. You were talking about absorbing as much as possible and this year with the program being virtual, it's certainly something new for all of us to experience, but in some ways I think you might have even more opportunity with it being a virtual platform to really kind of make the experience whatever you want. And there's going to be a lot of opportunity to network and to get in touch with other professionals to share best practices and sort of make some of those inroads. So I hope you'll make the most of it. I know you will, but I think this year, even though there's some challenges with it going virtual, that it might actually end up being a really enhanced experience for you to really absorb as much as possible.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Absolutely. And good luck Shelby on that. There will also be several other universities that are a part of the Symposium this year, just like there has been in the past. But I want to get into, and Tiffany, this really is for you. There's a lot of programs that have a Red to Black®type model, and there's even a book called Student Financial Literacy: Campus-Based Program Development that Dr. Durband and Dr. Sonya Britt have written, this gives the model of how to replicate the program across university platforms. So can you tell us more about how others could develop or have developed this program in their university?

Tiffany Murray:

Because of what Dr. Durband was able to build, I current received several calls from other institutions who are looking to build a similar program. And so I've had calls from schools who are starting, you know, from a business program, and schools that are starting from just students who are interested. I've received calls from institutions who are starting it within their financial aid department. So several different institutions are trying to do it in different ways. And so I think that's so exciting. Again, it's just an opportunity for students to get involved abd for students to help their peers in order to help engage and interact and help with the financial education aspect. And so, you know, you mentioned that book, and it's one of the first things that I read when I got the opportunity, when I learned about that book, and it's just a phenomenal book to go through and kind of think through the process and think through what are the different ways that, you know, we could potentially build this program that, that, you know, other institutions are looking to build. And so I'd highly encourage that, that particular book, but I also want to say, you know, everybody is going to do it a little bit differently. Our particular model, I believe is very successful because we have personal financial planning students, right. And so they have this base of knowledge and they're also looking to become planners or counselors or advisors. And so this is their ultimate goal. Whereas, you know, other students may not have this as their ultimate goal. And so I think that's where, you know, we kind of take it up a different, a different notch because we do have those students who, they're in it because this is ultimately what they want to do, but I definitely don't discourage any other programs from just working with the students who are interested. I actually got a call over the summer from a student from a school in Chicago. And she was actually like an accounting major or something. And she was like, Oh, we do this. We're helping our students and you know, this that, and the other. And so I just encourage any student who's interested in doing a program like this to reach out as well. You know, it's not only, you know, can come from the topic. It can also come from the students who want to help other students. And so we're encouraged by, you know, what we're doing and where we're hoping to go and, you know, hope that we can continue to be that model and that light for other programs who are interested in doing the same.

Mary Bell Carlson:

And I think one of the win-win pieces of Red to Black®is the fact that it's not just about helping other students, but it's actually giving experience to students who are training, you know, and I hear Shelby say, that's why she came is she wanted to hone her skills. So she will leave the university with a much enhanced skillset because of her participation in this program.

Tiffany Murray:

I've mentioned this several times to our students. We've had employers who have reached out to me and have, you know, basically told me that they see the difference in students who are in Red to Black®versus a student who is not, and they can see the comfort level in students who are answering questions about, you know, future, future clientele, or how they would handle a client session. So again, absolutely just as you say, it's an opportunity for our students to get some skills before they go out into the real world.

Mary Bell Carlson:

So, Tiffany, one final question up to that is, are all students that go into the program required to do Red to Black®, or is it all volunteer? How do you get your students?

Tiffany Murray:

It's absolutely all volunteer. We recruit every single semester, we look for all interested students. We do have underlying requirements for our students. And so we want the best of the best. And so we have that recruitment process. We let them know what we're looking for. We have an application and interview process. Our leadership team- which Shelby is on our leadership team- we all do those interviews and it's a team effort on those interviews to work through selecting the best students who provide that quality. And again, who will help to take Red to Black®to that next level.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Great. And speaking of that, that's a great segue to, actually my question for you, Shelby, is that I hear you're planning to sit for your AFC®exam soon. So I'm curious, you know, what your goals are with that and how you think becoming certified will support not only the work that you're doing while you're still there at Texas Tech as a peer financial coach and financial advocate, but certainly as you look more towards post-graduation and what your career goals are.

Shelby Henderson:

I think sitting from AFC®and then potentially obtaining, it just gives me- I learned myself better, I think, and being able to just take everything that I've studied, I've learned in the past and just having to remember the things that I forgot that I can be applying to sessions that I know could enhance sessions with students. And so just being reminded, what I could help, the gap between what I forgot since the classes I've taken while being here at Tech. I think it's beneficial to me in a Red to Black®sense, but looking past that, looking into my future goals and my career goals, I think the benefit that I'm looking for is just kind of the step away from other designations and what I can take away specifically from CEs, for the, for AFC®and just things, opportunities and conversations I wouldn't get without having the AFC®.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Shelby I will admit, I was actually in your shoes about the same time. And I sat for the AFC while I was still in school after I had completed my coursework requirements. And while at the time I thought, Oh, this is really going to help me in Red to Black®and some other situations, I have found that it's not just been valuable for that experience, but especially in getting out, it's helped set me apart in the career field. It's also helped me get jobs earlier than some others, simply from the fact that I already have certification under my belt and had one as I went in. I was able to help employees and clients in a different way than I would have had I not received that. So I think it's great that you're doing that even now as you're close to graduation, but I want students to know, like once you get that education requirement, you can sit for the exam, the experience will come. And I think you'll have more opportunities to do that as you sit for this certification and continue to improve yourself through obtaining certifications, but especially that AFC®, it allows you to really have the confidence to sit in front of clients and as well as students which you're already doing.

Shelby Henderson:

Yeah, I wish I would have considered sitting for the exam closer to finishing the requirements, the education requirements, just so- I just wish it would've been on my radar a little bit sooner.

Mary Bell Carlson:

If you had it to do over again, what advice would you give a student about taking their AFC®exam while they're still in school now that you know, you don't have to have completely finished your degree?

Shelby Henderson:

I would give the advice to myself to take the time to look into it. And the benefits that come with being able to sit for it and passing the exam and being a part of AFCPE®and just the benefits for students that come from it. I would tell myself to reach out to another student who has been on maybe the AFCPE®Knowledge Bowl team or someone I've heard who is interested in sitting for their AFC®. I would just try and surround myself with information and knowledge regarding it, just so I can feel a little bit more empowered and ready. The biggest thing is, I think I was maybe 19, maybe 20 I'm like, there's no way I have the knowledge or the ability to sit for an exam like this. And so just getting out of that mindset an that headspace and empowering myself and letting myself know that I am capable of doing so.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Just having the self confidence really to sit for the exam, as well as the self-confidence, it gives you when you have those credentials.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Yeah. And the only other thing I would add to that, I guess, is that if you don't know where to start or who to get connected with, a great place, obviously is your professor and they can help get you connected with other students who have maybe already sat for the exam or who are in the program, but you can always reach out to the AFCPE®team as well, and we can help make those connections for you. So I think that's a great point to just try to get connected as soon as possible. And, you know, the benefits of that earlier in your collegiate career than waiting until the end.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Tiffany, I want to go back to you for a final follow-up on Red to Black®is really a great way for students, as we've heard from Shelby and others, how they gained this valuable experience of the field, and they're able to support their peers. I'd love to hear some great student success stories that you have.

Tiffany Murray:

We're seeing, especially now with COVID and everything COVID related that's been going on, the finances, students have more, more financial concerns. And so it's been awesome to just see the opportunity to still have the chance to engage with them. So we, prior to COVID, we were doing in-person sessions in our client session room. And so we were super excited about, you know, doing that with the hopes of eventually moving towards Zoom or Skype or some platform to do virtual sessions. But well, COVID forced us there. And we've taken that as an opportunity to just continue to help students. And so as we've gone through the transition to Zoom we've, we've gotten a chance to see more students who have financial concerns. And so just being able to help them again, give them guidance as far as their budgets and, you know, providing resources for them to potentially get on campus jobs or some other opportunities that may be around in the Lubbock community, just really seeing students take this knowledge that we're, we're helping them with and continue on. I actually am working with a student who I began with, she was a master's student and I'm still working with her through sessions. She has since graduated and has moved on and she's working through her career, but still has those financial concerns and still has those financial questions. And so it's been a great, great success story for her to see her with that job and to see her, you know, with more resources now, but now truly understanding what that spending plan means. And, you know, if she goes over or if she's under, where can she put those resources. And so again, just getting the opportunity to see success stories like those where, you know, I can see that they're taking the knowledge that, you know, that we're providing to them and using it in their real life and not just yeah, shake your head. Yeah, I get it, but actually use it in their lives. So that's just an example of one, but we have so many, and I'm sure Shelby can share from, you know, this semester and maybe prior of some that she's seen.

Shelby Henderson:

One of my favorite sessions that I ever got to be a part of was... sometimes I forget how unique college students can be. So sometimes when I think college student, I think just someone here trying to get a degree four years over. But I had a student come to me who she was married and she and her husband were trying to work through some things and he was a med student and she was finishing a degree here. So I took a step back and got reminded that every situation is different and that it was just so fun helping. It was a glimpse into helping a family through, and explain a spending plan and empowering them to stick to it so they can reach their goals.

Mary Bell Carlson:

It is so rewarding to see how you're impacting, not just individuals, but families and how, what the ripple effect is for years and years to come at the end of each interview.

Rebecca Wiggins:

We like to get the guests two cents or your biggest takeaways for our listeners. If each of you had just one piece of advice to offer other financial professionals or students who are listening, what would it be?

Tiffany Murray:

I'd encourage other students- undergraduate students, masterds students, PhD students- wherever you may be. The knowledge that you're learning in your classrooms, I would encourage you to take that in so that you can not only help to build your knowledge, but help to educate other peers and help to ultimately help enhance your community by providing information and giving that financial education that you know, so that others can use that information to take into their lives.

Shelby Henderson:

Tiffany kind of touched on exactly what I was thinking. Yes, mine would be kind of two parts. Yes, you provide yourself with that knowledge, take your classes seriously. Obviously this is for students take your classes seriously, like take the time to learn that knowledge. Yes, you know it, but be confident in it, be confident in sharing that information. Because like Tiffany said it might help this person substantially and more than we may ever know. So don't, don't tip toe around what you might know you know, it and be confident in it.

Rebecca:

That's fantastic. Thank you both so much for sharing your expertise and your vantage points in the field. I think it's really important what you both bring and what you're doing in your program. So thanks so much for joining us today. We appreciate it.

Mary Bell Carlson:

And I'm really glad to hear that this is continuing on and I ask you to continue to carry that torch far and wide. I'm glad that it's expanding to other universities and that really, you're almost two decades strong in this program and you've affected so many well done.

Tiffany Murray:

Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you guys so much.

Shelby Henderson:

Thank you so much.

Mary Bell Carlson:

Rebecca, it makes me so proud to have been a part of something that has lasted over two decades and affected hundreds, if not thousands of lives. I really think that Dr. Dotty Durband had a vision of what could really affect individuals and make a difference for students when she started this program in 2001. I appreciate the willingness of Dr. Dotty Durband, Tiffany and other leaders in this space to share their knowledge and success with so many other programs and schools. And I really find that a key part of the win for Red to Black®is the peer to peer education piece, but I don't think that's necessarily only driven in a university setting. I think it can be replicated in other settings as well. It's that peer to peer education that really champions further growth. It helps the individual, like Shelby had mentioned, that it helps her with her skills while also helping the individuals that they want to help. A couple of other thoughts that I had is it amazes me how I continue to hear these stories of people, organically finding financial planning, counseling, and coaching programs that these professions are literally decades old, but many students and career changers still stumble into the profession. And I hope one day that we're able to have students start their careers as a freshmen, but so few know about this field and I just hope it becomes more mainstream in the future. And my final thought is really, I hope that students and career changers who are in the field now who are taking financial counseling and coaching classes and who are listening to this podcast, know that they can actually sit for that AFC®exam as soon as they meet the education requirements. You do not have to finish your degree, but you can sit for it earlier on while you're still in school. And it really gives young or new professionals the opportunity to have self-confidence and a certification when they start to work with clients straight out of school.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Yeah, absolutely. You took the words right out of my mouth. Actually, I had some of the same thoughts and just was struck that the theme for both of them was really around looking for this helping profession. And that, that was their goal was to help others. And as you said, you know, kind of stumbled into it from different avenues. I thought that was really striking. And to your point, just, you know, the work ahead to make sure that this is something that becomes much more mainstream and that we raise that awareness at an earlier time for students who are thinking about what they want to do in their careers. It also really struck me about the power of their work. And this is true, of course, beyond just the Red to Black®program and really to all of our professionals. But thinking through that ripple effect of the work, you know, they're working with students in this one place in time, in their life. But you know, sometimes we don't see the impact, not only in that person's life, but then that information that they're sharing maybe with their parents or with their siblings or friends, their family. And so I thought that was something that I just kind of was reminded of listening to the power of their work and, and how that ripples out into our, the rest of our country even. And then the one thing that I loved of course, was Tiffany really said it best around AFCPE®feeling like a home. And we often talk about this at the team. You know, that coming to the Symposium, it feels a bit like a family reunion and the energy is so palpable. It's like nothing I've ever experienced at another conference or symposium. Just want to remind everyone that since this year's program is virtual, you do still have time to register. And even though it's virtual, it's going to be an incredible experience with lots of opportunities to still connect with your peers and with other people across the field. So we do hope you register, and we're excited to see you there.

Speaker 1:

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