Real Money, Real Experts

Beyond Shame & Blame: Building Bold Money Habits with Syble Solomon

• AFCPE® • Season 5 • Episode 111

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In this insightful episode of Real Money, Real Experts, we sit down with Syble Solomon, the visionary behind Money Habitudes and a trailblazer in the world of financial behavior. Syble shares her unique journey, from her early career as a Peace Corps volunteer to becoming a Financial Behavior Specialist, transforming how people understand their relationship with money. We explore her "deck of cards" approach to life, the pivotal moments that shaped her work, and how AFCPE® has played a crucial role in her success.

 Get a sneak peek into AFCPE 2024, learn about Syble’s breakthrough moments with debt, and hear her powerful message about being bold in your money habits. This episode is packed with wisdom, motivation, and practical advice for meeting people where they are and empowering them to move forward.

Show Notes:
02:53 Who is Syble Solomon?
06:39 The beginning of Money Habitudes
09:55 Syble's debt breakthrough
11:34 Dealing with the deck of cards life throws at you
16:45 AFCPE to the rescue!
17:28 How AFCPE impacted Money Habitudes
20:10 Safe and Sound: A sneak peek at AFCPE2024!
28:40 How to be bold in your money habits
33:44 Syble's 2 cents

Show Note Links: 
https://www.moneyhabitudes.com/
https://shop.moneyhabitudes.com/cards/
https://www.afcpe.org/symposium/
https://www.freefrom.org/ 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel De Leon , executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A-F-C-P-E.

Speaker 2:

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a FC and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth.

Speaker 1:

The opinions of our podcast guests are their own, which means that their stories, views, or lived experiences may differ from yours or mine. However, the one thing you will always find on this show is a common thread. Our guests are passionate about helping people with their money to improve their lives, and they believe in upholding high standards for the clients and the communities that they serve. We encourage you to tune in to real money, real experts with open curiosity. Why? Because it's oftentimes in the conversations where viewpoints or stories differ from our own that we learn the most. Sybil Solomon's multiple careers have given her a broad perspective of working with people from Peace Corps volunteer to child development specialist, executive coach, and financial behavior specialist. She's focused on meeting people where they are and giving them the tools to move forward. Sybil received recognition from the Association of Higher Education in gerontology for her graduate course planning for the third age, and has received multiple awards for her work relating to the psychology of money. Sybil is also the creator of Money Habitudes and the Good Credit Game. In 2023, she was recognized as a of CPE's Distinguished Fellow award winner, and she also received the Mary Ellen Edmondson Educator of the Year award in 2009. A popular speaker Sybil has presented to a wide range of audiences from international women's groups to the NFL and financial education conferences. She co-authored Bringing Money Into the Conversation, a quick Start for therapists, how to Be rich in life and Love for Youth and Inspired Savings. Welcome Sybil.

Speaker 3:

Hi. It's so fabulous to be here. I can't wait to see you all in person at the conference.

Speaker 1:

Sybil, you've had such a storied and really a fascinating career, and I think a lot of our listeners are very familiar with Money Habitudes and know you as the founder of that. But tell us a little bit about your professional journey and what inspired you to develop money Habitudes in the good credit game.

Speaker 3:

So one thing about my life is I never knew what was gonna come next. And I actually, unlike many people who have great ideas and they plan it out and they figure out what their goals are and they jump into it, life kind of just kept happening , kept kept happening to me, I always thought that I would be in one place and my life would just kind of unfold. And I started out being a child development specialist at Georgetown Hospital, and I ran one of the first programs in the country for infants with special needs. And this was at a time where people didn't even think children that are born with special needs that they could be helped, that until they were older you couldn't do anything. So it was a brand new field and I just expected that I would continue in that field. But then I got married and you know how that goes <laugh> , that brings on a lot of unexpected things. And my husband decided that he was gonna go back to school. So we ended up moving up to Ithaca, New York to go to Cornell. And at the time, because the field I was in was so new that there weren't any jobs in that field, and I just had to take the next job, which was related, but it, it really wasn't what I was planning to do. And then we kept moving. So we've been married 50 years and we've had 14 major moves to different states in those years. So I kept having to adapt. And at the time I love new terms that now we have the term the trailing spouse, and we have the term the flexible parent. I didn't know about those terms back then. I just happened to be one of those people and I just had to keep adapting. When, when we moved to Greensboro, North Carolina, the state of education, there was not at all what I was used to. I was always used to being on the cutting edge of everything. And somehow through a very weird set of circumstances, I ended up becoming an executive coach, which was just amazing. I got to work with CEOs and CFOs, COOs direct manager , uh, executive managers, executive directors, and then people in education in the military, in corporations. And it was just an amazing journey that obviously I got trained to be able to do that. But again, it was at a time before coaching was an in type of thing. You couldn't take courses in it. There were no certifications yet. So the company I worked for did amazing, amazing training. And since , so since 1995, I've gotten to do that and people might say, how could you go from early childhood special education to executive coaching? But you know, it was actually a pretty easy transition because when you're coaching somebody and you're working with them, you're really working with the person. You're not working with some like hypothetical idea. And underneath we're all three years old. Hmm . So having worked with a lot of three year olds and knowing that the types of things that people are afraid of that people enjoy, they all go back to when you're like three years old. So I actually found my early childhood <laugh> background to be really helpful working with executives. And then while I was doing that work, it became the beginning of Money Habitudes again, by such a weird set of circumstances, is that people started talking to me about money problems. Now I had no background in finance and I had no , and I wasn't asking people about their money, so I was like, why are you talking to me about this? But one day a bankruptcy educator who I just happened to meet was telling me this story of a couple that came in to declare ba to declare bankruptcy. And she said to the husband, you might have to sell your BA bass fishing boat in order to pay off some of these debts and to not have that monthly expense. And he looked at her and he looked at his wife and he points to his wife and he says, she goes before that . Wow . Wow. And I was like, whoa, <laugh>. However, I had a woman working for me. And I told her that story because I knew it would be, you know, relevant for her. And she didn't have that reaction that you had or that I had. She said nothing. And two hours later she walks into my office and she says, Sybil, did you know my husband is a bass fisherman? And I said, yes, that's why I told you this story. And she said, I am $15,000 in credit card debt and if he finds out, he'll probably divorce me. And it was like, this woman is so down to earth . And I said, how did you get $15,000 in credit card debt? And she said, well, the company closed where my husband worked, and he decided to start his own business. And it really hasn't gone well, and I don't want people to know that. So I continued giving to my parents and my in-laws the same as I always did. We had been in the same Baptist church for like three generations. We tithe. I don't want anybody there to know. So I continued tithing at the same level. And she said, so in order to pay our bills, I put all the food and all of our, they had two children, all of our kids' clothing and needs on the credit card bill. And she said, and we need to get a new truck. So when we go for a loan, he's gonna find out when they check our credit. And they start . And they had started the , the , um, credit collectors had started calling her. So when you talk about being sort of gobsmacked, never in my life would I have thought that about her and realized, like so many of us, I always think, oh , if people are in debt, you know, they're irresponsible. You know, they should plan better, they should earn more money, they should do whatever, all full of all these shoulds. And , um, as someone says, you , you know, you shouldn't on me. <laugh>

Speaker 2:

Mm-Hmm

Speaker 3:

<affirmative> .

Speaker 2:

Yep . But

Speaker 3:

What I realized was, wow, this has nothing to do with her trying to, you know, spend money to impress people. She's trying to just keep her head above water and not embarrass her husband. She's trying to protect her status in her community. She's trying to help her children not be embarrassed and to be able to do stuff and to put food on the table. And that conversation along with other people just starting to talk to me about money stuff led me to think, wow, people's, the way people react to, to money and debt and all that stuff, it really isn't about knowing what's the right thing to do or having the skills. It's really more about their relationship with money and how it makes them feel and , and what it inspires them to do in their behavior, which may be great or not. So that's a , a long story to say. She got me thinking and then I just started doing all the research I could find, which wasn't a lot back then on the psychology of money and, and how people react. That led me down this path.

Speaker 2:

Lots of it's much easier to shame and blame than it is to really dig deep. And I love that story where you're able to really see people for who they are and what they're trying to accomplish, rather than just telling 'em what they should and shouldn't do. I love that <laugh>. So Sybil, I wanna get to know a little bit more about how Money Habitudes came about and then thereafter the good credit game . So can you continue the journey? So

Speaker 3:

After I started doing all this re research, because I had a background in adult learning and having to really individualize when you're working with people with special needs, I realize that since money is the number one most difficult topic to talk about, 'cause we're never talking about money, we're talking about our relationship with money, our feelings about money and our emotions. And it was like, wow, how can I do something that will make this easy for people to talk about? 'cause people don't wanna talk about it. And then I thought, well, okay, if it's a game that would be a little bit easier. So that's how it became a card game. And, and I had seen the patterns of behaviors, so I used that as the basis. And then I had to learn all of this stuff. I never knew about how do you produce cards? Who do you call for something like that. And, and people were telling me, number one, that emotions and money don't mean anything. So just tell them what they need to know. And other people were telling me they were, everybody was a naysayer. So I had to figure out, well, how am I going to keep myself motivated to do this? 'cause I really feel it's important. So what I did was I went online and every day I got a quote and something funny that came automatically to me. And so I started getting my inspiration from that. And then I don't even know how this happened. Oh, actually I do, I call it my board of directors. I had had some surgery and somebody gave me a tape that you play in the background and it helps you understand that everything that's happening is happening to help you and it helps you to relax. And one of the things they said was bring people into the, into the operating room that care about you that will be there for you, that love you. And obviously, metaphorically, they couldn't come into the operating room. So I thought about that and I had three people in mind, and it was months later that I went, oh my gosh, all three of those people had passed away years earlier. What does that mean? And what I realized it meant was that these three people were so embedded in my messages, in who I was, that they were influencing me in ways that just surprised me. So one of them would say to me, I would hear in the back of my head, A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. And the other would say, just, you know, be really careful. Make sure that whatever you say or do won't embarrass you. Well those things, when you're starting a business, they really hold you back. So I decided I needed new voices in my head and I started my own board of directors, which are those voices. And I started to read strong women's biographies, and I decided that I was gonna put them on my board of directors. So I read Eleanor Roosevelt's biography, and when I was going to do a new project, I'd say, Eleanor, what do you think about this? And she would say, is it for the greater good? Go for it. And I would say, Oprah, what do you think about this? And she would say, you go Girl <laugh> . And I would ask Dolly Parton <laugh> . And she would say, have you done your research? I mean, we think about Dolly Parton singing, but she's an amazing business woman . And she'd say, if you've done your research, go for it. You know, you, you know what you need to do. So now I had a new board of directors and the other person I put on it was Alan Alda, although obviously not a woman. Alan Alda could do anything. He could write, he could direct, he could produce, he was bright, he could, he was just amazing. So I decided I would put Alan Alta on there too, and he would say, really? You don't have money to hire somebody to do that? Figure out what you have to do and do it yourself. It's like, okay. So there we go. I had my new board of directors and I finally, I put the cards together and I ordered 5,000 decks of cards. Well, when you think of a deck of cards, they're pretty small. When you think about 5,000

Speaker 2:

Decks of cards , <laugh> not so small. I didn't

Speaker 3:

Realize my

Speaker 2:

How many

Speaker 3:

This truck pulled up with a pallet

Speaker 2:

That was

Speaker 3:

High and four feet square. It was like, oh my God,

Speaker 2:

What am I gonna do these cards ? <laugh> , you got what you wanted that didn't know you wanted that much <laugh> Oh,

Speaker 3:

It , it was appalling. But A-F-C-P-E to the rescue can , can I tell you my A-F-C-P-E story <laugh> , right ? So I had been in an organization called the International Society of Retirement and Life Planning. It was a great organization, it was pretty small, it was international, and it folded into A-F-C-P-E. So here I am talking about life planning issues and I know nothing about finance. I had no idea what A-F-C-P-E was. And they put me on the board

Speaker 2:

<laugh> , and I thought ,

Speaker 3:

I , I thought A-F-C-P-E just did a conference. I didn't even know that you certified people <laugh> and what you did. And it was such a different organization back there. So I joined it. And when I put money habitudes together, talk about the universe conspiring to do good things for you, I decided that I would present it at A-F-C-P-E. So here, I had no background in finance, I had just learned what financial educators were. I had never knew that extension had anything to do with money. And I did a presentation there and it was incredible. It was, I can't even tell you how overwhelming it was when I got done. I had just had a death in the family and had to leave immediately. But these people who I had met that had become friends at A-F-C-P-E, they just took over and they sold my cards for me. And there was a line that went on and on and it was, it was just incredible. So within one presentation, I don't even know how many people were there, it was a workshop, but there were a lot of people there. And in one presentation, money Habitudes got introduced to the military, to universities. We didn't do as much with nonprofits back then, but there was a little bit of that to credit unions. It was, it could not. If I had tried to plan a better way to kick off my money habitudes, there was no possible way I could have done it. So I thank money, I thank A-F-C-P-E every day <laugh> for that. And it became my tradition that anytime there was something new, a new deck of cards for teens, a new deck of cards in Spanish, a new deck of cards for those in between , uh, when I got a new guide, I always introduced it at Money Habitudes. So thank you, thank you, thank you <laugh> for being there for me.

Speaker 1:

Oh , I love that. And Sybil, you're coming, well, you come to the symposium every year, but from that first time many years ago to today, you are coming to join us this year on the main stage. And I think what I love about you is you see a problem or you see something that needs solving and your passion leads you there. And so tell us a little bit about your session this year. You're speaking to the audience or to our community about a kind of a heavier topic, and it's called Safe and Sound. And give us a little background on how this came about.

Speaker 3:

Again, I didn't plan this at all. Yeah. And a couple of years ago, I was listening to one of the virtual workshops at the symposium and people were talking about the bank's role, the financial institution's role in helping people who have, are survivors of abuse. And honestly, just like with money habit habitats, when I thought, wow, if somebody isn't managing their money well that's, that's their issue. They, they need to step up and and do more. I always also thought that if somebody, somebody needed to get their finances in order and they had been in it and they were from a vulnerable population, including people who have experienced domestic violence, that, you know, all you have to do is go into a bank and set up an account and, and find out about your credit and do what you need to do. And it just absolutely floored me to, to realize how, how ignorant I was at how many bank policies really make it very difficult for people to set up an account and how incredibly , uh, intimidating these banks are. You know, I was brought up with, you know, once a week you go in and you put a little bit of money into your bank account. So I never really thought of banks as being intimidating, but they are. So when I talk at the, at the symposium, I'm not gonna be talking about banking. I'm gonna be talking more about the types of way , types of things that we can do to just be more aware that this issue is out there. These clients are already our clients. And the vast majority of people in domestic violence situations, like 90 to 99%, depending upon the research you read, that financial abuse and economic abuse are part of what they're talking about or what they're experiencing. So we're gonna be talking about raising awareness. That's, that has to do with our work, right? But here's the fun part, in order to learn this stuff, I started going to banks and, and I started talking to all these people who do work with finances, and I know that these people are their clients as well. And when you say to somebody, have you worked with anybody in a domestic violence situation? You know, what, what's your experience when people are coerced? And they all say, oh, well no, I, I, no, that's really not, that's not really a part of the clientele that I work with. And then after a few minutes, like maybe 10 minutes or so, they start saying , well, wait, there is , there's one person, let me tell you about this one situation. And then they go, oh, and then there was this other person and oh, and then we had this situation . So these topics are so hard that they don't even raise to our consciousness <laugh> that we're dealing with them. So that's what we're going to do. We're gonna talk about how to raise it to our consciousness. But in the process of doing this, and I've gone to the banks and they're saying to me, oh no, this hardly ever comes up in the short time we've been doing this. The banks, I live in a , in a small town in Montana. So I've gone to different banks and I don't know these, these people personally and, but they're, they're letting me come in to meet with them. And we have now done so many things that we, just as an example, in the restrooms in the banks, they've put up posters for our domestic violence shelters that people can just pull it off and, and get the number to call. They're going to be putting up stickers at the teller's windows and at the receptionist windows that say, you know, if you'd like to speak in private, just let us know. Just those little kinds of things. And actually a couple of months ago, a woman emailed me and she said, somebody had referred her to talk to me and about her finances and could we set up a time to talk? So I emailed her back and said, I didn't even know this woman. I looked her up in my old records. So I've sold Money Habitudes and Karen Mcow is the new owner, so I still have like my old, old connections. And I looked her up, the woman who referred her and she had ordered Money Habitudes like 14 years ago. Oh wow. It's all circle. And I didn't even, you know, I didn't know remember her at all. Anyway, I emailed this woman back and said, you know, you don't want financial advice from me. I don't do that <laugh>, but if you tell me what, what you're looking for, maybe I can refer you to some people knowing that through A-F-C-P-E, I knew a lot of people that could probably help her. And she writes back and she was a survivor of abuse, however, she was very financially successful and she just pulled the wool over everybody's eyes . She was so embarrassed by the situation that she was in and the financial situation that she was in, that she just was able to fool everybody. She didn't tell her friends, her family, and she worked with the banks. She never let the banks know that there was a problem. And this very successful woman never knew that there were any resources that could help her. Because anytime you're working with a vulnerable, situa vulnerable people or you're working with anybody in a very stressful situation, I can guarantee you that they don't necessarily know how to reach out and how to get help. And nobody had told her that there were places, if she had just seen one of these posters in a restroom, it could have made all the difference for her when she was ready to move on. So we're taking little tiny steps where we are and we won't be so much talking about banks as we will, you know, what are the types of things that we personally can do and we're all, we're all affected by it and we all can do a better job of listening. I know that's a big thing. A all of us at A FCP talk about how important it is to listen to meet people where they are. And we're just going to do that looking it through a , a different lens. So hopefully it's not gonna be heavy, it'll be fun and we'll see what we can do to make it fun.

Speaker 1:

I actually attended that same session at A-F-C-P-E. It was, I think it was our first virtual symposium Mac in 2020 and there weren't a lot of attendees in the session and I walked out of that kind of like you, although you took it one step further with the research. So kudos there. But just like what can we do to support and what can we do to help? And how are more people not in this session learning about these steps and where we can be advocates, even one-on-one with clients in our own communities. And so I think it's a beautiful story too, just of how, you know when you're at the symposium, how one session can kind of open your eyes or lead to new questions. And to see it come full circle to bring it to the full audience, I think is gonna be really exciting. You

Speaker 2:

Know, I really like Sable how you are pretty authentic in what you didn't know. Having to be pretty bold and say, Hey, I just thought people needed to be smarter with their money. But then also being willing to change that mindset, right? And doing the work it took to recognize that banking isn't easy for everyone or people in vulnerable situations need that extra help. I've noticed on your website that you have several resources for others to reach out and I feel like that's something you've done really well throughout your career is connect people to additional resources. Maybe would you mind sharing with us what your top couple of resources are when you're helping other people with vulnerable situations?

Speaker 3:

The resources that are out there, if you're dealing specifically with talking about people in domestic violence situations, there's a national association for domestic violence free from is an excellent resource. They have lots of great stuff and a wonderful, wonderful manual on the website, which can be downloaded. And they, they focus specifically on the financial end of it, but they're more focused on really big ideas , right? Where I'm talking about and working on a very small level. They're working on a big level of changing policies at a national level. But I think the most important thing really comes down to just being able to look through things through a different lens and do all the types of things that everybody is already knows that they need to do. And just be very intentional that you really need to listen to where people are, that you need to be open to what they're saying and that you need to be able to relax. None of us are there to fix everybody's problems. We're a resource <laugh> , we're not fixers, right? And a lot of times people feel like, Ugh , I don't want to deal with this kind of stuff. I don't know how to deal with it. Yeah, you do. All you have to do is listen, pay attention, be supportive. You don't wanna be judgmental . But those are all things that you do in your everyday work and hopefully in your everyday life. So you can just relax. It's not that you have to do a lot of things differently or anything differently other than be open and, and really listen and be a know what resources that you have. One of the other things that I'm very excited about is after our talk, one of the banks said, can you give us a list of like a nice, we'll make it into a nice brochure, a list of the local resources and Inc . And we are doing that plus including 800 hotline numbers. Because anytime people have money issues, they go hand in hand with life issues. And if you don't know that there's a way to reach out. And if we can just normalize that giving everybody this brochure, this piece of paper, this handout, a place to just go to where they can see it, you know, on the internet, then we just never know. And people might not be ready that day to reach out, but they might hide that brochure. And three months from now, a year from now, they may look at it and realize, here's a number that I can call. And that's not for, that's for any issue. Whether it's children's issues, financial issues, caregiving issues with older adults, suicide, you know, all of those things somehow impact everybody in some way. And you wanna give them those resources. You don't have to be the fixer, you don't have to be the knowledgeable person who says, just call so and so . Oh, can I, I just have to add one thing in this story about that. I was telling about the woman who had plenty of money but found herself in this awkward situation. Yeah, she got to a point where she went to church and said, I have, I'm not a churchgoer, but I was so desperate I didn't know what to do. So she went to church and said, God, please help me, give me a sign for what I should do next. And you're gonna laugh at this, but she walked outta the church and across the street there was a tarot card reader. And she went over there and the tarot card reader turned over the cards and said, tell me about the man in your life that is causing so many problems. And she had never ever told anybody her story. And she started crying, told her story, and the tarot card reader said to her, here's a place that you could go to to talk to people that they can help you. And that was how she found out about the domestic violence shelter that was in her area. And it was where she began her journey out. And it helped her not only get her finances in order and figure out what she needed to do and what she needed to not do , uh, it was like the first step in a new life for her. So we're not tarot card readers, may be money , Habitudes cards , readers, <laugh> , uh, but we can make a difference just by listening and letting people know about resources and by relaxing and being nice, being there for people.

Speaker 1:

Sybil, at the end of every interview, we always ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice to leave with our listeners today, what would it be?

Speaker 3:

Last year you all duped me into thinking I was going to give a speech. And you gave me this incredible, amazing surprise of being honored as your distinguished fellow that I still haven't quite recovered from that shock. And I thank you for that. But the speech was, and I did do it a bit, was my advice is be open, be curious, and be bold. And my entire life, everything that's happened to me has been because I've been open to new experiences, which doesn't mean that sometimes things have happened that I go, ah , no, that's not the direction I wanna go in. I don't wanna move again, <laugh> , I don't wanna do this or that or the other thing. But by staying open, it creates that attitude of maybe I need to think twice about this, maybe I need to consider that. And it has led me to wonderful places. And I think all of us need to be open, particularly in this time where it's very difficult to know. There's so many options that we just really need to be open to them. And that once we're open that you have to ask questions. You have to do your, your research. And by research I don't mean university research where you're going into heavy duty data collections. Ask questions, who, where, what, when, how questions so that you can learn and really listen when people are answering those questions. And last, when, when you feel that there's something inside of you that you wanna do, and it could be personal, it could be professional, be bold, take that leap and ask yourself seven times what's the worst thing that can happen if I do that? And almost all of the time. And then after you answer that, say, well if that happens, what's the worst thing that could happen next? And do it seven times. And by the time you get to the seventh one, what you start really realizing almost all of the time is that the worst thing that can happen is not so bad. <laugh>. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Or

Speaker 3:

That you've already dealt with something like that in the past and you actually have the resources that you could handle it differently if it happens now that maybe when it happened five or 10 years ago. So be open, be curious, be bold, and I think you'll have such a wonderful life and you'll make life so much more wonderful for other people that you're working with and that you live with.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. Those are three great tips. Hey Sybil, thanks for jumping on and joining us for today's podcast. Can you tell people where they can find you?

Speaker 3:

I've learned a new word. It's liminal person. It's a person who's in between . And since leaving Money Habitudes and moving to this next stage, there's not like a website that you can go to yet, but you can always contact me, ATY, S-Y-B-L-E , at lifewise us or give me a call 4 0 6 3 6 1 8 0 1 2 . And I'm happy to talk with you. Happy to return emails and if you go to money habitudes.com, there's great stuff there. Kara's always willing to talk to you. And she still has me up on the website so you can, if you forget who I am, you can easily look for me there as well.

Speaker 2:

Thanks so much. We'll make sure and include that in the show notes as well as a connection to the cards. So thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. You guys are great. Keep up the good work. I love A-F-C-P-E. I'm happy to see you. Have a wonderful future going forward.

Speaker 2:

Hey Rachel, it's always fun to hear from Sybil and really hear about her journey. I didn't realize how diverse it was. I think that's one of the consistent things we hear is nobody started out thinking they were gonna do what they're doing, but she really has been able to touch so many different areas and spaces and create something that she's been able to pass on, not only to others, but also to the profession as a whole. And I really like knowing the vulnerability, how she was able to evolve in her own understanding of people and how they dealt with money and how that differed from her past and her experience. So I look forward to hearing more from her from the stage.

Speaker 1:

Mary, I agree. Sybil has been a long time part of the A-F-C-P-E community. It's been fun to see her trajectory and hear about her trajectory throughout the years. One of the things that really touched me in this episode was her board of directors. And they weren't people that she physically knew, but it's so interesting, like her background in psychology and just taking aspects and wisdom from people she admires along the way and what mindset can do for the work that we do. And so love that her trajectory, love how curious she is. And I always know if there is a question or research to be done, Sybil is going to dive in and see what she can discover. And so excited to have her join us at the symposium this November and encourage all of you listeners, if you haven't registered yet, there's still time.