Real Money, Real Experts
Real Money, Real Experts is a personal finance podcast written and produced by AFCPE®. With an audience of financial professionals, we strive to educate and entertain with a combination of expert tips, engaging interviews, and real-life storytelling.
AFCPE® ensures the highest integrity of the financial counseling profession by certifying, connecting, and supporting diverse professionals. Our comprehensive programs, the AFC® (Accredited Financial Counselor®) and FFC® (Financial Fitness Coach), represent the gold standard of financial counseling and coaching certifications. And our membership community offers a place to share best practices, solve similar struggles, and access tools and resources that advance your career and enable you to better serve your clients.
Real Money, Real Experts
Just Move: From Discomfort to Progress with David Scherer and Joe Davis
In this keynote episode of Real Money, Real Experts, we’re diving into the power of movement—whether it’s moving beyond cultural gaps, moving through discomfort, or moving towards impactful change.
Join us as we kick off the Symposium Keynote series with two incredible guests, David Scherer and Joe Davis, who are experts in bridging the diversity gap through thoughtful, grace-based conversations. David and Joe share their insights on how we can just move beyond guilt, blame, and shame, creating brave spaces where we can challenge ourselves to embrace discomfort and grow.
David Scherer, an educator, speaker, and performer, brings over 20 years of experience in intercultural development and anti-racism work across the globe. Joe Davis, an award-winning artist and educator, uses poetry, music, and dance to reshape culture and connect communities. Together, they share their unique approaches to facilitating impactful conversations around race, money, and culture.
Tune in to learn how we can start building bridges across cultural differences and move towards a more inclusive and empathetic world. It all starts with the courage to just move.
Show Notes:
03:07 Your "JustMove" crash course
05:52 Getting to know David
08:14 Getting to know Joe
11:12 What is money culture & implicit bias?
12:41 How to foster a culture of money curiosity
14:13 The power of conversation & accountability in financial counseling
18:04 Practice makes progress
21:24 Action steps to breaking free from discomfort & creating brave spaces
27:59 David's & Joe's 2 cents
Show Note Links:
@justmoveculture, @joedavispoetry, and @agapedave1
For more information on their work, go to www.justmoveculture.com
Joedavispoetry.com: https://www.joedavispoetry.com/
Joe’s books: https://www.joedavispoetry.com/books
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Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel De Leon , executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A-F-C-P-E.
Speaker 2:And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a FC and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth.
Speaker 1:The opinions of our podcast guests are their own, which means that their stories, views, or lived experiences may differ from yours or mine. However, the one thing you will always find on this show is a common thread. Our guests are passionate about helping people with their money to improve their lives, and they believe in upholding high standards for the clients and the communities that they serve. We encourage you to tune in to Real Money, real experts with open curiosity. Why? Because it's oftentimes in the conversations where viewpoints or stories differ from our own that we learn the most. Today we kick off the symposium keynote series with two incredible guests, Dave Shearer and Joe Davis of Just Move . Joe is a nationally touring artist, educator and speaker based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He employs poetry, music, theater, and dance to shape culture. He's taught at hundreds of high schools and universities throughout the country, including New York, Boston, and recently as the artist in residence at Luther in St . Paul, Joe is also a qualified administrator of the Intercultural Development Inventory, or IDI and a Tommy Award winner for his artistry. Joe has published three books with Spark House , including his newest Unearthing us. His work has been featured on C-N-N-B-E-T and VH one. David Sheer is a speaker, educator, trainer and performer who has helped facilitate healing justice for individuals and organizations for the past 20 plus years in 45 states and in seven countries, a qualified administrator in the intercultural development inventory, or IDI and a trained facilitator for the Kaleidoscope Institute. David brings a grace based approach to intercultural development and anti-racism that moves away from guilt, blame, and shame. David is taught intercultural development and public leadership at the graduate level, as well as performing at football stadiums across the country. He's also been featured in an a, b, C documentary for his work Fighting World Hunger. Welcome, Joe and David.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Excited to be here.
Speaker 2:For those who haven't heard of just Move , tell us a little bit about your history, how you met and what led you to do this work.
Speaker 3:Basically, I had been an artist for probably about 15 years doing hip hop music. Being an edutainer , I always saw that the , that hip hop and music and poetry and storytelling could be such a good teaching tool. So I started using that as a teaching tool a long, long time ago. And a , about 10 years ago, actually more than 10 years ago, I met an amazing young, charismatic person full of energy and enthusiasm who just had the ability to connect with every human that he talked to. And I think for the work that I do, that's more important than almost anything is how do you build bridges across difference to be able to reach somebody and inspire them? And so when I saw Joe, I was like, oh, he's got it. And so I said, I , you know, I wanna work with you. He said, I wanna work with you. And so we started doing work together doing , and what's been amazing is that, you know, people, after I started working with Joe, they're like, I think you've gotten a lot better <laugh> . And I say, well, it's , uh, it , I have my secret weapon. Who , and so Joe has just, it's been amazing to see, you know, the work that we've done together, we can reach such, so many more people. And the relationship, I think, has just been so fruitful. I can only speak for myself, but for me it's been just amazing to work together and to be able to reach so many different audiences. So I dunno , that's my version of it. Joe , what would you say about our work together? Yeah, and
Speaker 4:Absolutely. We've definitely become like a dynamic duo, partners in Rhyme, as we like to say, you know, and and traveling across the country, we've been able to see the impact that we've had. Like it's, it's been inspiring to me like we go and, and , and share our stories and we're both able to share from our own unique perspectives. But coming together , um, through Just Move is had an even more powerful impact. And people really seem to be receptive and , and transformed by sharing that space with us.
Speaker 2:I love it. Well, tell us, I wanna know a little bit more, David, let's start with you. Who were you before you were just moved? Tell us about the David before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think, you know, for me, about nine years ago, and spoiler alert, I might mention this story maybe a little bit also in our keynote performance, but when, you know, nine or 10 years ago, here I am, I'm performing, you know, I also wanna just name that the type of music that I was doing is a black art form historically. And so, and I, and I'm not black <laugh> , and so I had a friend say, you know, Dave, you, you performed this music. And you know, you go into all these spaces and many of them are white spaces and you are as comfortable as you want to be. And the reason you're so comfortable is because there are women and people of color and lgbtq plus folks who are shouldering the discomfort so that you can be as comfortable as you want to be. And that just was like, hit me like a ton of bricks, you know, at that moment. And so for me, I realized as much as it's fun to be the lone ranger on the stage, and as much as it's, you know, as fun as it was to buy a house with rap money like <laugh> , you know, as I always say there , there's actually this, this responsibility that I have to honor the original people who created this music. I always say, you can't love this music and hate the people who created this music. And so for me, I had to figure out, at first, I was just gonna walk away. I was like, I'm done with this. I need to make room for others. But the same friend who was kind of saying like, Hey, this, if you're not, you know, honoring the original spirit of hip hop , this is racist. And they did use that word with me, which, which hurt, they said, no, don't walk away. They said, you need to hold the door behind you, because otherwise they're just gonna go get white guys with guitars for these gigs. So <laugh> , you know, so, so you need to make sure that there's other folks who can walk behind you. Michelle Obama said, hold the door behind you for others. Don't let it slam behind you. And so at that moment, you know, I got scared because I said like, oh my gosh, this, this kind of privileged power possessions position that I'm hoarding is, it's scary to think about inviting somebody else into that. Like, what if they don't like , what if they like Joe better than me or whoever it is better than me? Or what if I can't make a living? You know, all the questions that we asked . And then what happened was that I didn't necessarily see coming was as, as Joe and I began to work together more and more. What I saw was actually abundance on the other side of my fear. And I saw deeper relationship and I saw just things that I would never have been able to imagine. So this power that Joe and I have been able to build this collective power was way bigger and better and , and more amazing than whatever the power was that I was hoarding for myself. And I think I just think about that for people, especially for financial people who are kind of asking these questions of, you know, what do, how do I want to be responsible with my resources? How do I want to stay true to my own integrity? I would just encourage them. Sometimes you, when you give it away, you actually receive more when, when you start to get into this abundance mindset instead of the scarcity mindset. So that's been a huge learning for me. That's been my experience.
Speaker 2:Now. Joe, tell us about you. What , what was happening before you met David?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I'm an artist, author and activator of joy as I like to say. I'm a , I'm a man of many hats. So I do music, poetry, theater. A lot of people know me as, you know, a writer and performer. I use poetry to power possibility . So as a kid, I was already writing poems and stories and songs, but it became really transformational for me when I got sick, still in elementary school, I got sick. I, I, you know, passed on the bathroom floor, was rushed to the emergency room, had to be hospitalized. And for several years I was super sick. But I was using writing and drawing to , to help me process these really heavy experiences. And what I didn't realize at the time is I was using art to help me metabolize trauma and, and, you know, manage my emotions. And so art helped save my life, <laugh> . And at first it was this deep personal, vulnerable inner journey for me. But I had really beautiful mentors who saw that I had this gift and they encouraged me to share with other people. And I was really nervous at first. I was like , I don't know if I want to share, you know, these, these kind of raw real stories with people. But once I finally did, I realized that other people connected. I thought I was gonna be judged or humiliated or embarrassed. 'cause no one wants to, you know, be vulnerable in front of people. That's not a very popular thing, <laugh> , right? But once I started to share from this vulnerable space and just be really open and honest and authentic, I realized other people connected too. And it gave kind of this permission for us all to go deeper and, and art became this catalyst for healing. And so that's what I do. That's my life's work. My life's work is using art as a catalyst for healing. That's what I put into my books, into my theater productions. And when Dave and I hold space together, we're able to have a gracious invitation for people wherever they are on that journey, to meet them where they're at and invite them. You know, as , as Dave said, that power of collaboration and community is way more powerful than you can do it alone by yourself. A lot of what we hold is so heavy and we feel like we gotta just, you know, be tough and , and that rugged individualism that we're so oftentimes taught, especially in a western American context, just doesn't help us <laugh> , you know, heal and find that collective liberation. And so, so where Dave and I meet is like where we're able to bring people into that space of collaboration, of community, of collective literation , and we use art as one of the most powerful tools in our toolkit.
Speaker 1:So powerful. And there's several words that sort of came up that really resonated with me, but the idea of this trauma and fear and that comes out is really prevalent with members in our community as they're working with clients and their issues with money. And, you know, there's such vulnerability in asking for help or reaching out or navigating some of those processes. And it makes it even more important that as professionals that are working with individuals across, you know, all genders, race backgrounds, that we're able to meet them where they are. And to really approach that with curiosity. When
Speaker 3:Joe and I teach culture, you know, culture is learned , shared, and unspoken. And so, so many of us receive this implicit curriculum about money and time and conflict and all, but we don't know we're receiving it <laugh> . And so then, right , we , you know, it's not until we encounter a different way or you know, some of us maybe find a partner or something where we say, oh, and then we begin to interrogate those cultural patterns that we grew up with and then say, oh, I didn't even realize I was getting training on money about like, you know, who, who was good, who was bad, you know, were rich people good, or were they bad? Were poor people good or were they bad? You know, what is, what is enough? Like all those things are like modeled for us, but we, we don't even know we're receiving it. So, I don't know , I was just resonating with what you're saying in terms of that, that messaging that people have to unpack when they get later in life and say, are these actually the values that I want have, or, you know, do I wanna adapt?
Speaker 4:And I think you said the magic word too. You , you mentioned curiosity, right? How do we move from Yeah , fear into curiosity. And that's, that's one of our, our driving ethics. We always want , wanna move from what we call, you know, there there's fear and scarcity into this curiosity and this joy and abundance. 'cause so oftentimes doing this work, people leave like a , a session about culture or race or power, and they feel worse than they did when , when they came, right? But how do we hold that space? We're saying , Hey, we wanna invite you not into guilt, blame and shame, but into curiosity and let , let's just like ask these questions together in a safe enough space to bring our full selves.
Speaker 1:What kind of advice would you give to someone about starting to foster that culture of curiosity? You know, so much of what we have learned, and I'm gonna get it wrong, but unspoken, you know, we don't necessarily see it in the moment, and then we have these realizations that there are these biases and things we've learned along the way. So what do you share with , without, you know, giving us everything all today, but what are some of those things that you would tell someone who wants to approach life with a little bit more curiosity?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, I mean, one thing I would say is like, don't beat yourself up because we're all on this journey together and we're gonna have those first thoughts. You know, Dave and I oftentimes talk about how we, we can't stop telling stories about each other about ourselves. Like as soon as you meet someone, you're storifying you , you come up with a story, you know, we , some might call them biases, but we we're storied beings. And so we're gonna make up you those first thoughts, but to have a better second thought, right? And that's takes practice it . These big changes aren't gonna happen overnight, but have grace with yourself. Be patient and, and lean into what we call compassionate curiosity, which is minimizing the assumed characteristics and maximizing what's discovered, what can be joyful and what can be surprising. That's a daily practice. I talk a lot about practice, 'cause practice doesn't make perfect, but practice makes progress. And so how can we create these spaces where we practice together and we're gonna mess up. It's gonna be messy, awkward, uncomfortable, but if we have, you know, a heart, sir , in the right place, and we know we wanna create this world of, of beauty and healing, let's, let's keep practicing every day together.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things we're going to enjoy about this upcoming symposium too is the diversity within financial counseling. So many financial counselors come from so many different walks of life, whether it be gender or Rachel or even overseas. We have counselors all over the world with different backgrounds and different stories to share. And so I'm really excited to see how that plays out as you guys go on stage and they connect. I heard David say a bit earlier of this idea of a mirror as well as a window, and I think they'll be able to really connect with that. Tell us a little bit more of what our listeners can expect to walk away from after attending your session at this conference.
Speaker 3:Good question. So one of the, one of the questions we always ask is, what do you want people to think, do and feel as a result of being a part of this thing? And so I think for us, one of the things that we would love is if people, those who carry anxiety about these conversations of difference , would be able to just feel held in a space of grace enough to be able to explore them without , uh, judgment. Now what does that mean? It doesn't mean that, you know, when , when people are saying problematic things, of course we're gonna try to call them out slash call them in to, to, to , you know, continuing to improve. But what it does mean is that, you know, these, these conversations that we've stopped having because they're so fraught for people that they'll just feel a little bit more encouraged to have those. So that's one piece, just starting those conversations being held. I think secondly, we want people to start thinking about the what are the, what are the spaces that I inhabit and what are the identities I bring and, and what power do I bring? So as we talk about power, I think one of the important things will be all of us have have some form of power in some way, shape, or form. So how do we claim the agency that we do have ? And then for those of us who maybe have been given too much power in situations, how can we move back and make space for others whose voices need to be heard? So that will be, well , you'll be challenged on that a little bit as well. And then lastly, as we go into race a little bit, we want people to start to identify what is my own, especially for folks like myself who has been, who have been raced white, what is my racialized story? What , what is my story of race? How can I be aware of how that might show up when I'm, you know, meeting with somebody to do a counseling session? What, what do I bring into that and how can I meet somebody where they are ? So hopefully we'll give you a few tools to explore these differences. We'll give you some reflective steps, but also lastly, I think some of the embodiment that we try to practice both in our movement that we provide in the, in some of the somatic, some of the somatics that we talk about in terms of body awareness, like really learning how to embody this stuff. The last thing I'll say is there's a Indonesian proverb that says that wisdom is just a rumor until it lives in the muscle. So I think a lot of us, we read the books, we, we, you know, we know the things, we can pass the test and check the right box, but our bodies haven't gotten the memo quite yet. And so how do we actually make sure that our bodies are practicing the justice that we seek in the world? And so we'll try to give at least a couple tools to feel, what does that feel like in your body when you're really practicing justice, when you're practicing reconciliation and healing? That's, that's some of what we'll provide in a very brief keynote <laugh> if we , if we've done our job right,
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah. And one of the thoughts I wanna share is, I love that you keep using this word practice, right? Just like Joe shared earlier, practice makes progress. And so tell us a bit more about how that came about and what that means to you and others in the audience. We do
Speaker 4:Best what we do most <laugh> , right? And I think the reason why we don't always feel as comfortable and confident having conversations around, you know, culture or power or race is because we don't have a lot of conversations around culture and power or race. Uh , and maybe we've been told stories that you know about, you know , we're not good at it or it's, it's, it's unsafe or it's, it's scary. And so after we were able to unpack those stories in , in a safe enough space, or as I like to call it brave space, it's like how do we start to practice having these conversations and practice listening to, you know, the wisdom that we do have because we , we have so much resilience and wisdom. We're we're actually carrying forward this legacy of those who have gone on before us. If we look out, we have lots of possibility models of people who are doing this. Um, you know, look at our ancestors throughout history, these multiracial coalitions of people who have fought to, you know, abolish slavery and, and desegregation and, and people who are still doing this work to this day. So there's lots of possibility models about how to do this work. We can learn from them and with them and build on that legacy. To me, that's all a practice. Like we can practice envisioning and embodying this world. We long to live in together and , and every day , every time we're in community together, we have an opportunity to, to learn something new, to grow, to develop, to go beyond where those who have gone on before us, it's , we kind of have this responsibility and this opportunity to go even further. So that's, that's what the practice is all about for me. I'm always, I'm, I'm not an expert, I'm a practitioner, right? I'm a practitioner. I say I'm not the stage on the stage, I'm the guide alongside , and I just wanna be in community with fellow practitioners who is trying to do this thing, who's trying to live this life of, of joy and beauty and justice.
Speaker 3:If I can just add to that real quick, so please, Joe and I, we use this developmental model. And so this was a model that we learned. We, we are both qualified administrators of the intercultural development inventory. And part of the methodology with that is we believe that in , in human development, the way it works is you don't start out with Mozart, you start out with chopsticks and you don't start out slam dunk with, you know, 360 slam dunks. You start out with layups, <laugh> , you know, and, and this work is similar, both anti-racism work, and interculturality starts with, okay, let me, I'm gonna start from the beginning. There's two ways to do this work, imperfectly or not at all. So I'm gonna try to start on the journey and it might be imperfect, but I'm gonna learn as I go and as long as we can be teachable spirits, I think that's really the key, that posture of humility as we learn and grow, then, you know, they say it's impossible to learn and look good at the same time. So I'm gonna have moments where it doesn't feel good and I don't look good. And that's, that's okay. I got , I need to get over myself and, and have grace for myself and compassion and keep moving forward. I think so many of us get mired in in guilt , guilt and shame that we just, we give up and we, and so we never get to the three pointer or we never get to the, I know I'm a basketball player, so that's my analogy here . <laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> ,
Speaker 3:You know, we, we , we try a lay up and then we say, oh , I can't play, so I'm gonna walk away instead of, let me keep getting back in there and, and see if I can keep getting better. So that's what we want people to do.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious for our listeners who want to start making that actionable step forward and start to build bridges across cultural differences and to challenge themselves to, you know, embrace a little bit of the discomfort, what's one small step they might take today to start that process?
Speaker 4:Well, one practice Dave and I invite people into, we call it a racial biography. And it's going throughout your life and thinking about all the experiences you've had around race. 'cause sometimes people don't even , um, some people are very aware of some of those racial dynamics. Some people have never really thought about it. So just developing a practice around that saying, okay, let me even just start maybe for the next 24 hours and think about , um, all the differences that are in the spaces that I'm in, and how am I responding to those differences. Like when I go to the coffee shop, when I go to the grocery store, how are people similar to me? How are they different for me? And how am I responding to those differences? And then you can even go from throughout your entire life, from starting from when you were young to where you are now and saying, yeah, let me think about all those differences that I've, that I've encountered, however responded to them and just start like writing about 'em, journaling about it. We have some, some documentation we could share with folks that kind of give more explicit direction to that process. But really just, just really practicing that, that curiosity when it comes to cultural and racial and power differences.
Speaker 3:Oh , I was just gonna jump on that assignment a little bit more that Joe gave to people. Is that also, you know, part of that, when we talked about windows and mirrors, I think doing those metacognitive questions , both in familiar spaces and unfamiliar spaces are , is really key. So, so as Joe mentioned, the coffee shop, okay, I'm gonna go to the coffee shop that I always go to and I'm going to sit with, you know, three 40-year-old white men, okay. Or five 40-year-old white men . But I'm gonna ask myself, okay, how are, how are they similar? How are they different? What am I doing about the difference? Am I judging it, minimizing it, seeing it, adapting my own behavior to account for it? And then now I'm gonna go to an unfamiliar space, and now I'm at a black owned coffee shop and there are four black women who are all in their twenties. And okay, you remember how there were contours of difference that were present with the 40-year-old men in their , in their forties? I'll bet there's similar nuance and contours of difference that are present here with these women instead of the danger of a single story. And so then that's the, that's the muscle that we continue to flex. And Joe , Joe and I always say that if you can't see those differences that are present right under your nose, like right in those quote unquote monocultural spaces, if you can't see the difference that's present there and respond to it and make somebody feel more welcome and included, then what makes you think that you're gonna, you know, get in some spaceship and travel to a far away land where, where difference is present that are maybe more fraught and, and show up well in that space. So the , the practice field is all around you. There's always grist for the mill for this development. And, and everything is an opportunity to learn and to grow. So I, I hope people will just remember that every single time you meet with somebody to do some financial consulting, that's an opportunity to look how are we similar, how are we different? And what am I doing about that difference? So it's not, you know, this isn't like necessarily rocket science in , in terms of having to travel far away or having to go way far away to find that diversity. It's all around you at all times. Well,
Speaker 2:Okay, I have to ask this question 'cause the professor in me wants to know, is there a book you would recommend to help us take these steps?
Speaker 4:I know you probably have some of your recommendations, Dave. I'll share at least a couple of mine. So , uh, one of my favorite books when it comes to this conversation is SMA Minium is my Grandmother's Hands. He's one of our friends and , and , and mentors. So I highly recommend that book. And then Adrian Marie Brown also has some beautiful work too. She's a poet and author, one of her more popular book , I mean a lot of her books are really popular, but Emergent Strategy is a book I come back to again and again and again as well. So my grandmother's hands emergent strategy. Um , Dave, I'm sure you got a couple you wanna throw out there too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, so one resource, it's both a book and it's a resource by a woman named Erin Meyer, who, it's called the Culture Map. And in the culture map we, she, she takes a look at these, these they're called gen cultural general frameworks that Hof and some of these sociologists came up with in the seventies or whatever. But this is , these are for example, scheduling, fighting decision making . There's probably eight of these that she maps. And so she has organizations and individuals map themselves along the lines of where are you on this continuum? Are you more monocultural or , uh, sorry, do you have what we would call monoclonic or poly chronic one orientation around time or multiple orientations around time? So some people you say nine o'clock you show up right at nine o'clock. Some people, if you say nine o'clock, that means get there when you can. And you know, so, so she helps people start to reflect on, oh, I have these patterns and where am I and how does that relate to my own culture? You know, if I grew up in the American culture, which is a very task-based culture, do I resonate with that? Or maybe I'm more relationship based . And so, so it's nuance, right? Not everybody from a culture exhibits the same behavior of that culture. So you start to see both how it's nuanced, but also have more awareness so that, so you can remember that when somebody shows up at 9 0 7, it might be that they're just wanting to disrespect you and they hate you. And it might be that they're just more poly chronic and they just have a different understanding of time and they talk to their grandma and they got carried away in the conversation and, you know, that mattered in that moment. And so deal with it for seven minutes. So <laugh> anyway, I I <laugh>
Speaker 1:Not as my husband <laugh> <laugh>
Speaker 5:And me. Exactly .
Speaker 3:And , and if you were in Liberia, I mean, so, so just as an example, I don't wanna go too long here , but like, so just as an example, if you were in Liberia and if I was gonna meet down with a , you know, hey, I'm excited to do this financial consulting with you, and, and if they said like, normally I would need to talk to you, I would ask you about your family, I would, I would build that trust before we ever dove into this work together, right? And that person wouldn't necessarily even trust you until you started to build that relationship. However, you know, in the US culture of course, it's like, okay, I don't wanna waste your time, let's get right into it. But it's important to remember that not everyone is wired that way. So it's , I always love to sort of feel it out and see like, okay, if this person is more relationship based , I need to slow down and, and make sure they trust me before I just start talking about deep things like finances and, you know, deep values. So figuring that out, whereas other people might say, okay, why are you talking about your family and your feelings? Let's get on with it. Like, you know, don't waste my time. So it's just important to, to remember that. And I think that book helps us remember that.
Speaker 1:So Dave and Joe, at the end of every interview, we always ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice to leave with our listeners today, what would it be?
Speaker 4:I would say, you know, I , I'm , I'm ever the optimist and, and the hopeful person in this work. And so I just wanna encourage people to, as much as I talk about practice, I see hope as a practice as well. So like, keep looking for those ways that you can find hope and, and practice that, right? Look to what I call possibility models. So possibility models for those people who are doing this work of healing and justice in the world. I think we need to collect possibility models and examples of what it looks like to live in the world we long to live in. Because if we look at the news or I , I like , I don't think it should be called, the news should be called the worst things that are happening near Us <laugh> , because that's what it feels like. We're just inundated with so much negativity and cynicism and pessimism. I think we gotta, we gotta cultivate our practice of, of hope and, and joy and looking to people and organizations and, and those who are really doing this work and say, oh, you know what, this is possible we can live in a world of, of beauty and healing and justice. And so that's what I would tell people just to encourage 'em to say, you got what it takes to do this work. Just look around. We , we got this together,
Speaker 3:Joe stole mine a little bit. 'cause we're always on the same wavelength. But I would say, yeah, absolutely. You know, we say culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And so how do we build cultures that can contain this, this liberation that can hold us in this discomfort? Because I think a lot of times when Joe and I work with people and they say, oh , this is great, thanks so much, I can't wait to do this. And I say, great, who are you gonna do it with? And they go, oh, I'm just gonna bootstrap it myself. I'm just gonna do this individual work. And we say, oh, good luck with that because you are gonna opt out very quickly. You know, it , the work gets hard and it gets uncomfortable. So I what Joe is saying this, this practice, what would it look like for us to develop communities of practice? So I, I belong to a group of, you know, cisgender straight white men that get together every other week and we go through, we , we cry together and we, we share these stories together where we've nailed it, failed it, and don't know what to do about it. Those are the three buckets that we talk about. And, and so the reason why we do that, and people might say, well , you're self-segregating. Why would you ever do that? Well, first of all, people self-segregate all the time, but they don't <laugh>. But secondly, the reason we do that, and Joe and I might get into this a little bit more, is that we need to hold some of this discomfort. We don't need Joe to come in and comfort us and, and because we're awakening to our own racism and now he's trying to comfort us even though he is the one who's been harmed by this racism, right? Why does he need to comfort us? So part of this is like, find other people who you can do this work with and and build a culture that can hold you when you can't hold yourself. You know, what are the songs that we would sing together? Like Joe said, who are my possibility models? Who are the people that will carry me in this work when it gets hard? And if we don't have that friends, I think we're gonna struggle. So please find your community. All it takes is, you know, two other people. We, we have a group of five or six, but you could do it with three <laugh> , you know, get together, talk about it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much David and Joe , we really appreciate you joining us today. We're looking forward to seeing you on the stage. Can you please tell our listeners where they can connect with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I, I wanna lift up Joe's work 'cause Joe does this work both with me, but he also does other really important work as well, so, so Joe Davis poetry.com and he can maybe tell you more, but just move culture.com is the work that we do collectively the two of us. But Joe, anything else you wanna say about your, the individual work that you do? I know you got something coming up here.
Speaker 4:The same thing I was gonna say, just move culture.com Joe Davis poetry.com. I am launching a wellness program. Uh , find Your Freedom Practice Wellness through the Arts. And so that's your sensors on mental, emotional, spiritual wellbeing using art as a catalyst. So that's launching later this month. And yeah, just excited to be finding new ways to deepen the impact of the work that we're doing together.
Speaker 2:Thank you both. Thank
Speaker 3:You.
Speaker 4:Thank you
Speaker 2:Rachel. That was awesome. I think it was just so empowering to hear this idea of, I know I'm stuck on this, but practice makes progress was so freeing to me and just the sheer fact that I felt like I could go up and ask David or Joe a question that you just can't ask other places, right? Like, there's not that safe place to be able to ask and have these conversations. And I really appreciate A-F-C-P-E bringing this in and being able to say it's okay, we can ask questions, you can be curious. In fact, that was one of the things that Joe mentioned is this compassionate curiosity. And that's, that's honestly, if you think about it , that's what travel is, right? Like you're curious about other places, other cultures, other things, and how can we apply that now within our practice? How can we apply that with each other and not sit on opposite sides of the fence or even point fingers and say, well you're not doing it the way I would do it. At the end of the day. It's how that abundance mentality that David brought up of how do we bring this together? And I really love David's story, how he as a white man who loved hip hop , what felt this is alone and until he met Joe and was able to connect with Joe, it wasn't complete. That to me was a really beautiful picture of how that abundance melted . And more than one us working together is greater than us alone. I think that's just a great way to summarize what we're gonna get in November.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Mary , I think that's just , uh, it really resonates with me the power of our intersectionality. I mean it is our differences that makes A-F-C-P-E and the work we do so special. And you know, when we, we talked about the keynote speakers for this year and we're looking at who to bring in. The first conversation I had with Dave, I was like, we've gotta bring these guys to A-F-C-P-E. The work that they're doing I think is really going to resonate with our community. I think it's gonna be really powerful for us as individuals for the relationships that we're building within a very diverse community. But also I think we're gonna learn a lot of things to continue to grow in the work that we do with clients and students and really making impact across the country. So excited for this one and for those who are coming to symposium, this is on Friday, this is our last session of the symposium. So if you're thinking about ducking out early, don't do it this year. I promise you it'll be worth it to stay and hear these guys in person. Which Mary brings me to question for you as we're gearing up for symposium and for our listeners out there who may be thinking, do I wanna travel this year? Am I gonna register virtually? What first brought you to Symposium? Well,
Speaker 2:A woman named Dottie Durbin, <laugh> <laugh> , everything goes back to Dottie in my world. And it was as a student and coming in that realm. But what continues to bring me back year after year and it's the people, I mean every time I go back, these are friends now that for over two decades I come back and I see, and I don't get to see them, but once a year in person and that connection and I think so many people resonate with those, I'm coming back to see my friends and it's kind of a fun trip to be able to take and connect with those around. Now if you're new to the community, you're not gonna know have two decades worth, but here's what we say is come see, be a part of it because you will find those connections there. A-F-C-P-E is one of the most welcoming communities. If you've only experienced this virtually, oh man, you are missing out because virtually is great, but if you go in person , you actually get, if you want the real hugs, yeah , the real connections, the real handshakes, that's to me where the power really comes in is it's great to have meetups and coffee chats and things throughout the year, but it's, this is kind of the key highlight of, of the entire year and it's a great way to end the year, right? Yeah . So you've worked hard all year and it's really nice to cap it off with these connections and pats on the back from people that you don't know yet. Every time I go every year, I mean I talk about the people I've known for 20 years, but really every year I go, I meet new people that , uh, yeah , as Joe said earlier, that compassionate curiosity, what are you working on? I had no idea you were doing this. And it just makes more and more connections. So even though there's people I know from the past, every time I go, there's people I meet this year that continue on into my future, right? Which is good for your business as well. So if you're running your own private practice, it's one thing to sit in. Uh , you know, speaking as a solopreneur myself, it's lonely sometimes. And being able to get out and connect with others, especially for those who don't have that day-to-Day Business Connection, I think it's fantastic because that's when you get new ideas, that's when creativity is sparked. That's when your business, you may meet someone, and I'll go back to Joe and David. David was running his own business and it was fine, but it wasn't until he met Joe Yes. That that really capitalized and really shot them off into a whole different realm. Same thing exists in our world, right? Have you met your Joe yet? Metaphorically speaking, <laugh> , to be able to cap you off and, and take you on a space that you haven't been before. And I think that's what Symposium does. So what , regardless of the reasons that you initially come, you keep coming for the connections, not only of the past, but of the present and the future as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. We always say, I mean the knowledge, the content, the curriculum, everything you take away at Symposium is super rich. But some of the most powerful things are the conversations in the hallways. And you know, whether you're introverted, extroverted, you know, there's space for you and people welcome you in. Those are some of my favorite stories. People who have, you know, private practitioners that found their partner within the hallways in a conversation. We interviewed someone last week who was a presider, so introduced a session and ended up purchasing their business. And so these conversations happen when you least expect it. And that is the magic that is A-F-C-P-E symposium.
Speaker 2:Rachel, I have to admit too, I could hardly tell you sometimes what city we're even in for symposium, because I don't leave the hotel. And I know that sounds ridiculous to some 'cause you're like, you flew all this way, but the best part is actually happening inside those walls. Yeah . So regardless of where the conference takes place, the best part is, is the connections that happen inside. So there are some great things in Columbus. You tell me all about it and I'm really excited to see it come to your hometown and really get connected there in Columbus. But really the magic takes place within those walls regardless of what hotel or what city or what location we're in. The magic is the people that come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, Columbus is sort of this hidden gem in the Midwest and you know, I , we are a retail capital of the world, but we have like the culinary culture in Columbus, Ohio actually where the Hilton is, where we'll be staying downtown. There's so many great shops and restaurants and fun things to do right outside the hotel walls. Yeah, I mean, I, I couldn't speak more highly of the community itself. It has that Midwest feel, which is always welcoming, very representative of A-F-C-P-E, but it has a big city kind of vibe too with things to do. So Buckeye football, stick around for the weekend if you're in , if you're into Ohio State sports. But very much to your point, we put together a really intentional program to engage you while you're there. And while I always encourage people to step outside and get some sunshine, we will keep you busy and hopefully walking away feeling really invigorated for the work you do and excited about the year ahead. So for anyone who's interested in joining us this year, as Mary said, it's in Columbus, Ohio, November 20th through 22nd, we'll put a link in the show notes, but we encourage you to attend. If you're listening to this podcast episode when it comes out early, bird registration ends September 30th and regular online registration will end at the end of October. If you cannot attend in person , we have something for you as well. This year we're actually recording all of our breakout sessions, so between on demand sessions, breakout sessions, live stream , general sessions where you can hear from keynotes like Dave and Joe, there's something for you and we encourage you to join us this fall.