Real Money, Real Experts

Navigating Cultural Differences with Dr. Kate Mielitz, AFC®

• AFCPE® • Season 5 • Episode 104

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This week, we welcome Kate Mielitz, PhD, AFC®️, CDP®️ , back to Real Money, Real Experts. Dr. Kate has 25 years of experience in financial services, including bankruptcy, fraud, financial counseling, and higher education, and she's dedicated to helping financial and human services professionals navigate cultural differences. 


On today's episode, we take a deep dive into the ways our background and lived experiences affect our relationship with money and gain strategies for working more effectively with vulnerable populations. Kate is a wealth of knowledge, and her energy and enthusiasm is contagious. Want to gain insights and resources to help you learn more about diversity, equity and inclusion and ensure you are truly meeting clients where they are? Tune into this episode!

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Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel De Leon , executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A-F-C-P-E.

Speaker 2:

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a FC, and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth.

Speaker 1:

The opinions of our podcast guests are their own, which means that their stories, views, or lived experiences may differ from yours or mine. However, the one thing you will always find on this show is a common thread. Our guests are passionate about helping people with their money to improve their lives, and they believe in upholding high standards for the clients and the communities that they serve. We encourage you to tune in to real money, real experts with open curiosity. Why? Because it's oftentimes in the conversations where viewpoints or stories differ from our own that we learn the most. Today's guest is Kate Mitz . Kate has 25 years of experience in financial services, including bankruptcy, fraud, financial counseling, and higher education. Kate earned her PhD in personal financial planning from Kansas State University and holds a bachelor's degree in broadcast journalism and a master's degree in interpersonal communications from the University of Wyoming. She obtained her A FC certification from A-F-C-P-E in 2009 as part of the FINRA Foundation Military Spouse Fellowship. Since then, she has served as an assistant professor in the Family Financial Planning Program at Oklahoma State University. She's worked for A-F-C-P-E Family Promise of the Mid Willamette Valley and Consumer Credit Counseling Services amongst other organizations. Dr. Mitz was the 2019 FINRA Foundation Military Spouse Mentor of the year, the 2020 A-F-C-P-E. Mary Ellen Edmondson Educator of the Year, and just this past year was awarded the Kansas State University Rising Professional Award and Personal Financial Planning . Kate holds the Certified Diversity Professional designation and is passionate about the importance of training financial professionals to better navigate cultural differences and be impactful in their work with marginalized, vulnerable and neurodiverse clients. Welcome back to the podcast, Kate . Oh,

Speaker 3:

It's so good to be back. Thanks so much for having me, Rachel and Mary.

Speaker 2:

Yes, we love having you on the show. And if you've ever listened to this podcast or if you've been a member of the A-F-C-P-E community for a while , you've likely met Dr. Kate. We've had the pleasure of speaking with you a few years ago and your journey to the A FC and the FINRA Foundation Military Spouse Fellowship. But today, we're excited to bring you on to talk more about DEI and even more importantly, the value of cultural competency training for financial and service professionals. Cultural competency is a cornerstone of A FC, but tell us what you did to dive deeper into this work.

Speaker 3:

Actually, I owe so much of my journey to A-F-C-P-E. I'm gonna back up before that piece, but a big piece of it's gonna come back right here to A-F-C-P-E. So when I started in the industry, well, when I started in the industry, I mean, we're talking 1999 mm-Hmm , <affirmative> , I celebrate my 25th year, July of, of this year. But, you know, 1999, I, I don't remember all the things back then, but I do remember we were not talking out loud a lot about, if at all, about cultural competency, about how to meet people where they are. And I got in and I did some things and I thought, Hey, you know, I've got a pretty good grasp on this. As I started my PhD, I went and I was working with prisoners in the state of Georgia and within the state of , uh, well within the state of Georgia, as unfortunately throughout this , this the United States of America, we see an overabundance of men who are black, who are incarcerated, and there's a large portion of that that is due to racism. That's just the long and the short of it. And in this, in the prison system where I was working in the transitional centers, my audience was predominantly black and predominantly unbanked. And I went in and I said, you know what? I, I know how to teach this. These are the things that, that these men need to , to learn in order to be ready to transition back into society. And boy, did I need to check myself before I wrecked myself <laugh> . And as I got to know the stories of these men and their families and their experiences, banking is not for everyone. And I , I had to pause for a second. I'm like, wait a second. I've been saying and saying, and saying for months, 'cause it , it took me a while to find this out or to realize it, to listen well enough. You know, I've been , I've been , I've been preaching this out. Oh, you know, you need to be part of the banking system and come to learn. And at that point, I had not put the, the fine tune on it that I was making assumptions based on my privilege. But boy, howdy was I, and then I moved on. I , I was finished there. I graduated with my PhD. I went to work for Oklahoma State University, and while I was at Oklahoma State, I created a class called Financial Perspectives throughout the United States where we used the lenses of race and ethnicity, sex and gender, family structure, aging and religion, and experiences with wealth and wealth disparity to understand how people use money. And I loved teaching the class. And I talked about my experience in the transitional center and , and where I had that, that kind of revelation, for lack of a better word. And we talked about, we dug in deep about how I experiences of rate , how , how live lived experiences with me being a privileged white woman influence how I use money, how the financial system is, is grounded in racism and racist history, and how we still today see experiences of redlining and discrimination and lending practices. And then I left, and I'm, I'm summarizing quickly because I wanna get to the point where I share with you where I am today. I left academia, I went to work for A-F-C-P-E, and when I was at A-F-C-P-E, I really got to see the behind the curtain. So all y'all listeners, let me tell you what, there's a little behind the curtain here, A-F-C-P-E, but it was really, really neat because one of the things that I loved the best about working at A-F-C-P-E is that I was empowered to speak up. And if I saw something that I wanted to know more about or I wanted to find out why we did it, I was encouraged to ask question and understand. And if we need to change, make a recommendation, totally empowered to do that. And I saw the, the continued commitment to DEII was there at the, the first symposium where there was a kind of a, after, after closing session, there was a , a discussion about DEII was not able to attend that, but that stuck with me. And as I came onto the staff, I'm like, okay, I want to be part of raising A-F-C-P-E up because we know that within the financial services industry, especially , uh, financial professionals, we don't have a huge amount of diversity in practitioners. We see a lot, not so much on the a FC side, but as, as you change designations, we see a , a lot, a predominantly white male culture, and we all wanna do better, and we all wanna make sure that people feel that they are invited and welcome and, and , and going to be accepted if they come and work with a financial professional. So as I was going through and thinking about what it meant as an A FC , who's been active, who's worked in these different areas, I said to Rachel, I said, Hey, I know what I want to use my professional development dollars for. And she's like, okay , now what? <laugh> <laugh> . But she said, okay, tell me more. And the Society for Diversity has a designation, the Certified Diversity Professional, and the Certified Diversity Executive. Now, the way that they divide those is based off of your level within an organization. And I was not an executive, and that was fine. I wanted to get in and learn more. And I have never been one for alphabet soup. I never, after I got my PhD, thought I would ever have anything after my name other than PhD in a FC . But the Certified Diversity Professional, really, it's like getting your a FC credential. It provides evidence of my commitment to doing the work in the DEI field to help people do better and calling out, saying, Hey, listen, I am actively working every day to be an anti-racist, to be an LGBTQ plus ally, to help people find someone who can meet them where they are financially, regardless of all of the different characteristics and lived experiences of the person seeking help and or the person who is giving the help. And so that's a really long introduction to what we have today.

Speaker 1:

<laugh> , Kate, there's a lot to unpack in , in what you shared, but kind of even going back to the beginning, that first, you know, session where you were in the prison and you were working with predominantly black men who were incarcerated, and you came in with your education and your background and your lived experiences ready to save the world and hit a brick wall, probably <laugh> , what would you say to an A FC that finds themself or any financial professional that has, you know, all of us come into this field with really good intention of, you know, helping with behavior change and, and moving people into financial wellbeing. But what would you say to someone like you who's, you know, coming at it with very good intentions, but maybe missing the mark? What advice would you give to someone like that?

Speaker 3:

I think that's a terrific question, Rachel. Thank you for that. Because I was fortunate all of the men that I worked with were willing to listen, willing to try new things, willing to consider. So I was very fortunate in that regard, but I could have, you're absolutely right, I could have walked in and it could have been a brick wall. And one of the things I strive really hard to do is just like it says in our core, competencies, build rapport. And part of building rapport is a positive attitude is, Hey, listen, we're gonna do this together. Hey, all questions are welcome. But it's also, if I would, if I were to go back and do it differently now based on what I know now, I would go in and I would start with more questions. And I would not officially as a, you know, hey, research professor, gather data, but unofficially just kind of gather some quick data before every class. You know, who here has experience with a banking system? Who, who has a savings account, who has a checking account, who uses a prepaid debit card? Or you know, in that case the green dot card, which is a whole nother story in the, in the transitional center system, but who, who used to keep cash in a safe and only worked off a cash basis? You know, gathering more information like that so that then I'm ready to respond to what their lived experiences are with money right then and there. And then talk about why they're , why that's a good way, why that is a less than optimal way. Because here's the thing, just because for me, keeping cash in a safe in the house isn't the right thing to do, doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do for someone else. So for me, that might be less optimal. But for somebody I'm talking to, maybe keeping their money in the bank is going to be the less optimal way to go. And so that, and that can be based on trust. That can be based on past experiences, that can be based on lack of financial capability. That can be based on the fact that they know that as soon as money goes in, the state's gonna take it for child support or, or other, other reasons. So really go and walk into the room with, I can't wait to see what I'm going to find out today and start with questions. That's what I'd recommend.

Speaker 2:

You know, that's so good, Kate, instead of coming in with, let me help you. I just got back from a trip from Africa where there is a similar situation with many black males being incarcerated. And I think that's one of the things that really opened up for me in those travels, was starting with questions instead of answers. And I think we'd all appreciate that from our perspective as well. Can you provide an example of how training in this area has made you more impactful when working with marginalized vulnerable and Neurodiverse clients?

Speaker 3:

Oh boy. A lot of it came down to me recognizing, I've, I've said this a couple of times, I don't know if I've said it on the podcast before or not. When I was working at the university, I really just, I continued day after day to fall more and more in love with the work that I was doing. And there were times where I felt very pressured, very broadly, but very pressured to get another financial professional designation. And when I did not pass that exam, I kind of had to have a moment of, oh boy, who am I? What's my identity? And once I settled through that a couple months after I, I had failed that other exam and somebody reminded me I didn't have to have it to do my job, I didn't have to have it to even make tenure, I said, you know what? I'm not gonna pursue it again. Who I am is an accredited financial counselor. That has always been my core and key identity. And as I settled into that, that it absolutely is enough. And I don't need anything else because, you know, helping people create and maintain strong financial foundations is absolutely what lights me up and what gets me going every day . That's where I really settled into who needs me the most. My students absolutely need me. They're college students who are a vulnerable population. And beyond that, you know, really, if I wanna make a difference, I wanna help the people who need the most amount of help. I can't reach everybody, but if I can deliberately identify people who I have helped in the past, that's going to help me define who I, who I've , who I can help going forward, working with Family Promise of the Mid Willamette Valley, that was families experiencing homelessness, working with the Transitional center at Augusta Day reporting, or at the Augusta Transitional Center, and then with recovering substance abusers at the Augusta Day reporting center, college students. So we bring all these people together, and these are the people that light my heart up working with military, absolutely light my heart up and again, another vulnerable population. And if that's what's lighting my heart up, okay, well what else can I do with it? Why are they defined as vulnerable? So then we put on our research hat and we, we go and we dig a little bit there, and then from there we pull in, okay, well who else needs my help? And then we move into the neurodiverse, I identify as neurodiverse, my children, my husband. I volunteer on and sit on the Education advisory board for the Tread Association of America. And looking at the intersection of verbal and physical ticks, along with the overlap with a DD and a DHD and OCD and other neurodevelopmental disorders and au the Autism Spectrum disorder. I'm like, wait a second. The way that people use money is not, yes, it is absolutely influenced by race and ethnicity and sex and gender and family structure and age and religion and experiences with wealth and wealth disparity, but how our brains work really functions in there too. How we grew up and experienced things, just watching people, hearing our parents talk, or hearing our friends talk about money that all influences who and how we use money today. And I realized that in the work that I was doing when I heard the stories and I was able to help people connect who they were to that story and then connect that to what they wanted to do financially, I'm like, wait a second, there's something here. And that was really where I was finding my joy. And so I said, you know what? I want to , I wanna do a , a , a focus of the work that I do. I really want to hone in on working with vulnerable and neurodiverse and marginalized communities because I can make a difference. Is it, is it the end all be all ? Am I gonna save the world ab stink ? Absolutely not <laugh> , but might it make a difference, a small difference, at least in a day, at least in maybe the next pay period? Yeah. And oh, it just brings me so much joy, <laugh>, you can tell

Speaker 1:

<laugh> , Hey , your joy and your passion is always really evident. And I , I stu my , one of my favorite Kate stories is she spoke for the credit building symposium a couple years ago, and I came in the day after her session, unfortunately, but I think every single person that stopped me had something wonderful to say about Dr. Kate. So you know, about what she had taught them, how they , she had opened their eyes to the way she approaches clients. And so, you know, I just think planting those little seeds and those ideas and those resources is really key to doing what you're talking about. Kate, just starting to bridge a lot of those gaps. I'm curious, what resources would you recommend to a financial planner or a counselor, coach or educator, really anyone in this financial or social service industry? Do you have resources for people that wanna learn and dig a little deeper?

Speaker 3:

There's a book called The Four Pivots , um, by Dr. Sean Ginwright, and I love that one. There is a book called DEID, constructed by Lily Zang. And that is much more of a guide for someone who is going to work more specifically in a diversity, equity and inclusion role. But I have also found in my reading of the book that there are things that even if I'm not in a specifically DEI role that I can do to help just make things better. Mesa Baron's book, the Color of Money, black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap is a phenomenal text that really digs into the history of where, where we came from. And that was one of the key books. It was , I was referred to that book by a friend of mine from grad school, Kathleen Boyd, and she's a certified financial planner, and she helped me as I was creating the Financial Perspectives class, I turned to her and I said, Kathleen, any thoughts that you have? And she was really instrumental. She found me that book, and I fell in love with it. That combined with my, my favorite guy in the entire world who spoke at last year's

Speaker 1:

Matthew Desmond <laugh>

Speaker 3:

Symposium. Yes, Matthew Desmond, he was a A CP 2023, the, his book Evicted and his book, poverty by America. But his book, evicted really, you know, when I used it in class, I was able to use it at the end of my semester to bring together all the conversations that we had had throughout the, the semester, because you get to talk about experiences with poverty and, and, you know, what were the experiences of people in , in his story, it was a qualitative study, but it was a story of someone who was black as of someone who was, was white, and bringing all that together for some really fantastic discussion. And then I absolutely hands down, recommend checking out the Society for Diversity and potentially pursuing your Certified Diversity Professional or your certified Diversity executive designation depending on the work that you're doing. This is something this, when the CDP or di Divi diversity designation, to me, it , it , it's like hand meek glove . This is work that I'm passionate about. It's not just a checkbox. So if you wanna , if you wanna check a box and, and move on, you know, don't spend the time, don't spend the money. But if this is something that you're like, I really want to commit to this to make this part of the lived experience that I have, and let that influence the work that I am doing and find purposeful ways to let it influence the work that I'm doing in the financial services industry, I would recommend checking things out with Society for Diversity and potentially pursuing your diversity certification. These

Speaker 2:

Are all really good ideas and resources to take it further. And I think if this as an individual, right, we can affect and change really ourselves. And so it's starting with the work in to then externally go out, but we also work in a community like state, whether it's in an organization or in a local community, whatever that looks like to you. Let's talk about the community level. What can organizations or communities do to become more open to diversity and what that looks like to hear each other's stories?

Speaker 3:

I think one of the most important things that you can do, well, there's a game called The Elephant in the Room. I got to beta test the game, but there's a book that goes along with it. It's , it , it's totally separate. But one of the things I loved about the book, and one of the things I I really liked about the game is the game has you sit down with people who you work with and it's, it's kind of like money habitudes , a lighthearted way to start something. Well, the, the elephant in the room game isn't quite as lighthearted because we're talking about race, we're talking about lived experiences right there in the workplace. I think that recognizing your identity, whatever that is, when you are an employee, serving a client, serving a customer, there is built in there some inherent privilege. If for no other reason, then you are the one that has been employed as the expert or as the professional. And it is important for me. For example, I am a white, mid forties Protestant, heterosexually, married mother, highly educated. I mean, I could go on and on, but those are some of the things that, that define me, that inform how I do the work that I do. And I need to know what , I don't have to call that out verbally necessarily before every interaction, but I have to keep in mind that this influences how I use money. And what if I'm gonna work with somebody who is different from me in any way I need to check myself before I wreck myself, for lack of a better way of saying it, because that's what I did when I walked in with those men. I, that door could have been so slammed shut because I wasn't, I wasn't meeting 'em where they were. These, these are men who have experience of experiences of incarceration, if nothing else, plus their history with their families, plus possible and, and highly likely experiences with racism. And so that was kind of the first little, little raindrop that made me think. And, and today looking at it, you know, who am I and how do my lived experiences explain how the advice that I could give the resources that I may be familiar with, the contacts and the network that I have and how I phrase things. Uh , I think that identifying that within your organization, who are the frontline people who are , who's working with clients and how, how do they define themselves? How do they identify? There's not good or bad in here, it's just what is, and then how, how are those potential points of privilege and how does that influence how you may be working with a client or a customer or a member? Because it does matter. Because it does factor in.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for sharing all of your wisdom today and just being on the show here with us at the end of every interview, we always like to ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice, what would it be? If

Speaker 3:

I had one piece of advice, I think I would say know who you are. Embrace who you are and know how who you are is present in a professional and personal relationship with other people. Be the best version of yourself and ask for help so that you can continue to do better at what you're doing personally as well as professionally.

Speaker 2:

Beautifully said. Thank you so much Kate for joining us. If someone wanted to get ahold of you after, how is the best way to get in touch with you?

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me. And if anybody wants to reach out, you can get me on LinkedIn or you can reach me via email at Dr Kate Mitz , D-R-K-A-T-E-M as in Mary, IELI, T as in Tom , Z as in zebra@gmail.com.

Speaker 2:

Thanks Kate.

Speaker 3:

Thank you

Speaker 2:

Rachel. It's always fun to hear Kate, if you can hear in her voice the passion she just exudes. And so for those of you that have never met Kate, all you've gotta do is come to one A-F-C-P-E symposium, <laugh> , and she will walk away with a memory 'cause she is as impassionate in person as you are actually hearing on this podcast. We love Kate, we love all the enthusiasm. She's got so many skills and techniques, but she's so willing to share it . That's the other really fun part about her and so much about the community. I think it speaks so highly of those in the community is willing to share. What I really love about Kate is she's a learner and you can tell she's that lifelong learner. And so this conversation about DEI , it's about learning about other people, right? Learning about their experiences and their lived realities. And that is just what Kate embodies is that lifelong learning and so many others. So I'm, I'm really glad to have Kate and I'm , I think it's great. She gave us a whole list of resources. We'll make sure and include those in the show notes as well for you to dig in and check out and just learn a little bit more about each other.

Speaker 1:

I think when I always think of Kate, the word that immediately comes to mind is authentic. And I think the way she leads in a conversation, in an individual interaction with clients, she puts herself out there. And I think that really breaks down barriers and, and kind of comes full circle to what we're talking about today. She spoke a lot about meeting people where they are, and that's what we talk about a lot at A-F-C-P-E. And the only way to do that, I think, is to listen, to learn, and most importantly, to unlearn. And so we do that by starting by asking questions. She gave a lot of great resources today, but I wanted to add on a few others. A-F-C-P-E has some really great essentials courses, DEI , essentials and Financial Inclusion Essentials. Both are really great cornerstone courses to help you work with more diverse clients and to break down some of the things that you've learned along your life path. And then we did a really great webinar earlier this year called Finance in Full Color. And so if you're an A-F-C-P-E member, I encourage you to check out all the webinars that we have. There's some really great information that we've done in the past and there's some great things on the horizon. And then it is June, the end of June. And so a couple exciting things happening in the A-F-C-P-E Community symposium. Registration is open and this year symposium will be in Columbus, Ohio, November 20th through 22nd. We do have scholarships available, so check those out if , if you have barriers to being able to join us. It is an in-person event, but we do offer a virtual component. And then also going on right now are capacity building scholarships. And I think when we're talking about meeting people where they are and building capacity directly within communities, these scholarships play a big role in that. And so between now and July 15th, if you are with a community-based nonprofit or a 5 0 1 C3 university, be sure to check out our website. We'll put those in the show notes. But we are doing money management essential scholarships, and any group that completes those scholarships has the opportunity to go on and earn the A FC. So lots of exciting things happening in the A-F-C-P-E community and such a great conversation with Kate today. And as we leave , I just challenge our listeners to listen, learn and unlearn.