Real Money, Real Experts

From the Vault: Michael Thomas on Empathy

• AFCPE® • Season 4 • Episode 26

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Every December, Real Money, Real Experts takes a break to prepare for the year ahead. As we head into the busy holiday season, we're happy to re-share a fan favorite - our episode on empathy and the art of listening with Dr. Michael Thomas, AFC. 

Enjoy and happy holidays from Rachael, Mary, and the entire podcast crew!

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel De Leon , interim Executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A-F-C-P-E.

Speaker 2:

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Marybell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a FC and the CEO of Carlson Consulting. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients building community in your professional growth.

Speaker 1:

Today's guest is Michael G. Thomas Jr . An accredited financial counselor, PhD and lecturer at the University of Georgia. Michael has created financial capability programs for kids and adults, money dogs, and discovering money solutions. He's the founder of a private practice modem, financial Solutions co-founder of the Financial Behavior Keynote Group, and he currently serves on the A-F-C-P-E Board of Directors Michael's Ted Talk, financial Empathy, understanding the story behind the numbers , sums up his philosophy on how to effectively interact with money. Dr. Thomas's lifelong goal is to help underserved communities establish, grow, and sustain their wealth, utilizing an intra and inter-family wealth creation process. Thank you, Michael, for joining us today. This

Speaker 3:

Is exciting.

Speaker 2:

Michael, we're glad to have you back. We actually had you on the podcast back in June of 2020, and the world looked much different at that time than it does today. Will you catch us up with what your last couple of years have looked like?

Speaker 3:

Like with, with most people, it's, it's been a blur, honestly. <laugh> . Yeah , there's, there's real time and then there's covid time, and I am still kind of reeling from Covid time and trying to get adjusted to real time . Uh, but the past couple of years actually have , have been absolutely wonderful on my end , um, as we were navigating Covid, it was, it presented a unique opportunity to serve a lot of local, not-for-profits , uh, to come together as a community in , in more ways than one , um, to provide financial support, to provide our voice, our, our social platforms. Um , leveraging our connections just to make sure that some of the, the , the basic services , uh, that are absolutely instrumental to the livelihood of a community, especially as it relates to youth , uh, were still being met and , um, and just kind of banning together. And so that's been a really, really cool part about the past couple of years, have embraced a lot of significant and heavy and weighty uncomfortable conversations , um, about race and things of that nature, especially within my local church, in a community with, with friends conversations that I, I would've never have had as we've been navigating some of this stuff. Um, and then beyond that, having the opportunity to just kind of think creatively about, you know, what's to come and to be hopeful and, and optimistic about a post covid world, and, you know, how we can continue to, to serve and to just deliver real value to, to families and households now that we're kind of in this , um, post covid correction, correction is what I like to call it, as opposed to a recession <laugh>. Mm-Hmm ,

Speaker 2:

<affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> .

Speaker 3:

So we're correcting and we're, we're finding new normal. Uh, but what's been really intriguing though, is having an opportunity to speak with a lot of business owners , uh, whether it's the local restaurant or us going kayaking or whatever it is that we've been doing, having the opportunity to speak with them to really understand the magnitude of the supply chain issues , uh, has been mind blowing . And these supply chain issues, even though as individuals, we don't see them necessarily, unless it inconveniences us. Uh , but what a lot of these business owners have been enduring in terms of trying to do the best to , to keep their prices low , um, as inflation has incurred, and to keep people hired because they don't wanna lay people off, and to be able to just, to stay afloat, even as it relates to personal sacrifices that they've been having to make to go into debt to make all this stuff happen. Uh , I just don't think that we've, we've done an effective job of highlighting what a lot of these business owners have been enduring , uh, also their employees, but been a lot of sacrifices being made on that end. And , um, if there's an opportunity to, to say that I appreciate a lot of the business owners, <laugh>, who've, you know, been doing the very best that they can to keep families together, to keep their employees intact where possible, and to make these very significant sacrifices that they'll never be acknowledged for. I just think that that needs to be put out there. And if you are a business owner, I see you and I appreciate all the good stuff that you're doing.

Speaker 2:

You know, Michael, one of the things you talked about over five years ago now was your TED talk called financial empathy. And you really, I actually just watched it again this morning, ironically, for some other things I was working on. And one of the things that you really brought out is trying to understand people's stories beyond just how much did they pay for this, or what did you buy that for? You use an example of a woman who got a tax refund and ended up buying a large screen tv, and we make quick snap judgements of why. But then when you explain to her why it was she lived in a really difficult neighborhood and that kept her kids safe and off the streets, those are the types of things that I think five, 10 years ago, it was like, oh, that's very nice to hear. But have you seen a change in people and interest in this idea of financial empathy since going through covid and so many of the struggles that we've been dealing with, I

Speaker 3:

Have seen a, a significant shift in , in a lot of different areas, especially as it relates to personal, the personal, the , the , the financial services field. Uh , so for instance, there's a lot that's going on now with , uh, the CFP board as it relates to financial psychology, right? Uh , and approaching things more holistically and engaging in this emotional side , uh, of money , uh, the , the neuroscience, the neurological side of, of money. And, and to be honest with you, we're having these conversations, but we haven't even really started to broach the conversation of systems and how our interaction with self internally, and then also externally within our system, has implications on our psychology, on our behaviors, on our attitudes. So we're, we're really, you know, on the very front end of this, but these conversations hadn't always been the case. And even when I gave the, the TED Talk and first time in 2015, then again in 2016, which is the one that most people see that's been recorded, that's on YouTube , uh, is that I got a lot of pushback for nudging or encouraging people to be empathetic, because the, the notion of empathy for a lot of people is that empathy is like this touchy Philly space, right? And nobody wants to engage in the human side of, of thinking about money at our relationships to money . And we saw this in private practice, we saw this in financial planning programs. I mean, we saw this across the board where a lot of what we were doing was just simply trying to get to the optimal financial strategy. Um, and sometimes what's, what's optimal financially isn't optimal behaviorally. And, and the only way that you can understand behavior is actually having a real understanding of your client. And if you don't have a real understanding of your client, then that means that you aren't really listening. Um , and then if you are in the process of hearing them , uh, we've simply just kind of made up our mind in terms of we know what the canned recommendation's gonna be. Uh, our discovery process is just a formality, so to speak, and I'm already gonna put you , um, in this particular suite of investments, or I'm already or already going to suggest X, Y, and Z. And then not to think strategically and creatively about how we package that information and share that information with our clients, how do we present that information in the data visually? Uh, that's a part of empathy as well. So if I'm going to present charts and figures and things of that nature, I needed to have picked up on the fact, or I've asked my client, how do, are there , are there instances or moments where engaging with money and it makes you anxious or , um, makes you nervous or not wanting to deal with it, what does that look like? Right? Uh , so I kind of felt like we were almost there with the financial planning process, generally speaking , uh, but I felt like we, we lost the spirit of it along the way , uh, because it was just simply onboarding, being able to get assets of an individual and to manage those assets For me , um, the reason why empathy is so important in driving that conversation , uh, because for me, money isn't the main thing. The person is the main thing. Money is just simply a conduit to their hopes, their goals, their desire, and their dreams. So financial services is, is really about understanding the , the person in such a way that we can help them clarify what they desire and what they want, and then create the best financial strategy to help them live the life that they hope for, right? Um , so that's why empathy just really resonates with me. And I'm gonna be, quite honestly, and probably to a fault. I am not a very transactional person. Um, I am more of a relationship person. I've always been that way. And so for me, I start with relationship first and then consider, right? How can we deliver value transactionally? Um , so my stance or position <laugh> as it relates to navigating , uh, this space in a way that is authentic to who I am, wasn't necessarily authentic to the space at that time. Now I'm incredibly , uh, grateful to , to see that. And there are so many people before me that have done amazing work. So I'm not the only person, and I wanna be very clear on that. Um , who's been pushing the behavioral side of money, psychology of money, financial therapy, and all these other different things that we know when you actually work with clients in a very intimate way are, you can't exclude that from the process. And there were a lot of extraordinary people who came before me, and I just had an opportunity to maybe package it a little bit differently, utilize empathy that's more authentic to just my natural way of being, but then to explicitly link empathy to finances. Because so much, if we go back to 2014, 15, 2011, 2010, even before then, a lot of the narratives around money were shame inducing. And so we're shaming people to make decisions. And what I found over time is that when you shame people, you don't create a space where someone can actually engage in a process of growth, which means that I'm gonna take a few steps forward, I'm gonna take a step back, I'm gonna take another few step forwards, I'm gonna take a step back. There's trial and error. So when we shame people, we force people to hide. And then when people hide, they don't actually reveal their struggles and what they're dealing with, and they try to deal with those things on our own. And as a consequence, they don't ask for help. And then usually when we see clients is when things have gotten so bad, right? That they, they just don't have the capacity to engage in a fight anymore. And now they want someone to come in and help to repair or mend something that's been maybe three, four, or five years in a making. So I guess my whole stance on that was, well , why not? Let's just lead with empathy to begin with. Create a space for, for , for grace and compassion , um, so that people can reveal themselves in a way so that we understand what the real barriers are for the client. And we create solutions to that in conjunction with the financial goal. Uh, because if we can't identify the barriers that impede the client from the goal, because we're not raging in an empathetic way, then what happens is, is that the client doesn't meet the objective. They don't meet the goal, they don't do the thing. And what had happened so often in our space is that we would just say, well, the client just doesn't care. And I know better than that anybody who actually works with people , um, again, at a real level where you have real financial intimacy with these individuals know, they know that it's not that simple that someone just doesn't care. It's just that they haven't identified on an unidentified barrier that we didn't necessarily have the process or the mechanisms or even the appropriate thought process to help clients effectively at that time. So that's why that empathy conversation was so important. I wanted to drive it , um, because I knew that it was something that needed to be said, and I didn't just wanna say something that everyone else was saying, I wanted to be novel. Um , and I think that I achieved that, and I'm just glad to see that folks are starting to embrace the idea and then also wanna honor the people who've always embraced it well before I entered into the space. And I'm glad that I can add on to the great work that they've already done,

Speaker 1:

Kind of going back to that discussion on shame. And I think, you know, you talk about meeting with the client and not being able, you know, without leading with empathy, you can't work through those barriers that are impeding the client. But if you're not having an empathetic approach, you're not even getting the client in the door. And I think that's something we've seen a lot over, especially it's come to light in the last couple years through our COVID-19 pro bono initiative. You know, how do you get people to reach out when help is available? And it starts with getting them, you know, to, to feel comfortable enough and eliminating that shame so they will come forward and get the help they need. And so I think, I'm just curious, you have that empathetic approach when the client comes through the door. How do we change that narrative for clients before they even come to us in the first place?

Speaker 3:

That's a great point. And this is the thing too, e and if we don't create the space, we can get them to , to through the door, but they won't come back. <laugh> , right ? <laugh> . So there's a number of layers here. So I, one of the things that I've been very intentional about , uh, I currently reside in, in Athens, Georgia, is that I don't wait for people to come through the door before , uh, I engage in setting the tone. So honestly, if you go to modem solutions on Instagram, and you can hashtag modem M-O-D-O-M, which stands for Money and Wisdom , uh, and that comes from one of my favorite verses in Ecclesiastes seven 11 and 12. Uh, money and wisdom can get you almost anything in life, but wisdom is the only thing that can save your life. So I actually am very intentional about producing content , um, daily , uh, that is already speaking to that sensibility that talks about hope, that talks about encouragement, that helps people to kind of focus on how they're growing from their baseline as opposed to just focusing on a finish line that seems so far off. And then how to effectively kind of package the emotions that kind of come with navigating goal attainment and goal achievement. I proactively here in Athens , uh, I will go to local organizations. Um , I will speak to community leaders in the area, and I'll ask them, right? I'm not going as the expert, I'm going as the student. Um, so if I'm speaking to local leaders, I'm asking them , Hey, you know, what are the major issues that you're seeing in this, in the area? Because that's gonna clue me in on the types of things that potential clients may present to me who live in this area. And then what are the barriers? Uh , so what I then begin to do once I have these conversations is I already go ahead and I start creating solutions or thinking about the tools that we already have available to us, start coming up with a strategy to address the problem before the problem even arises. In many instances, I'll go to places where you'll have, you know, low income individuals , um, who are working class , strongly working class individuals , uh, where I'll just go and say, Hey, I just wanna come and just kind of hear, what are your experiences in, in Athens , um, employment, dignity on the job, which is something that I'm really big on, is dignity. And not just pay and pay raises, but are people being dignified in their work? Um, what types of things are you experiencing in your household? What are you seeing with rents? What's happening with working with your landlords, so on and so forth? Um , to then to begin to understand at the ground level, what are these issues? And just kind of creating space by listening first and then letting those individuals know that, hey, if you want to continue the conversation, I'd be more than happy to continue it with you , uh, and be able to, to be able to serve you in this way. And because I work at the University of Georgia, I am in a unique position where I have the opportunity , uh, to brush elbows with a lot of different people , uh, landlords and , and people who own property and rent. So the the fascinating thing is that then I can go and have conversations with them about what they're doing and what I'm hearing, and whether or not there's any common ground. So I, I both serve in, in a , in a number of roles to where I'm already proactively out in the community. I'm constantly polling the people who follow me on social media in different spaces and asking real questions about what they're dealing with. And I'm already creating a space of grace and empathy for them to be able to, and compassion , uh, as relates to how I respond , uh, to already go ahead and start to create this space where , oh, I can talk to them. Oh, he understands what we're going through, what we're dealing with , uh, maybe he may have a solution. So for me, it's about being intentional in my community, not being the expert, but being the student. And in using my expertise to take the information that I glean from individuals to effectively leverage my social capital, leverage my position and power the little that I have here in Athens and in my technical expertise to start thinking about whether more advocacy is needed as opposed to financial literacy. Because again, I can provide financial literacy all day, but if things keep changing, if things keep rolling downhill , that impede progress, then I need to reach out to the mayor. I need to reach out to other people , uh, to kind of think , all right , how do we prevent these other things that are actually impeding meaningful progress? Uh , so for me, it's a very holistic piece, and I think that social media is an absolutely excellent space to brand yourself as being someone who is empathetic, which does not mean that I am accepting of poor behavior. It means that I am willing to step outside of myself to understand you where you are, so that we can potentially address the issue in a compassionate way , uh, that's rooted in your life experience, the barriers that you have, whether it's professionally, whether it's within a household with a spouse , uh, whatever it may be. There are a lot of different things to, to kind of, in ways to kind of navigate this. But again, social media is a great place to use language and a tone that people will perceive as someone who is willing to hear them out and not immediately assume that we know that they're not doing enough or whatever it may be. Uh , because a lot of people think that that's what you think as soon as they walk through the door , um, and they already self shame before you can even engage with them, and that oftentimes prevents them from coming to you anyway . So that's, that shame hides people or people hide in that regard. But if we effectively use social media , uh, I think it's a great way to create space where people can feel as if they'll be heard. And we just have to be able to listen empathetically , uh, that leads to a compassionate outcome to reinforce this cycle. And then when we do that, then guess what? Then they recommend people to us, right? And then we start to build this thing gradually and slowly over time. We build trust, we sustain trust over time, then you just be , become a natural part of the system. Uh, and then once you've become a natural part of the , the system , uh, then it's, it's easier to get people to through the door, and it's easier to engage people , uh, in very difficult conversations because they trust that you have good intentions for them. That's

Speaker 2:

It. Michael, I remember seeing you on stage for the first time at A-F-C-P-E and symposium about four or five years ago, and just knocking my socks off with your speech, you did an incredible job and really breaking these hard, difficult conversations like empathy and shame and guilt to the forefront to make it understandable. And you were one of the best listeners that I've ever come in contact with. So I think that's one of the things that we can all learn from you, is how to, not only when, when given the opportunity to speak, to say impactful things, but more importantly, to listen and to understand and to empathize. And I think that is what I really have gained from you.

Speaker 3:

You know, Mary, I think what's interesting is that we have, we have conversations all the time about listening , um, but I don't think that we really know what that means. When, when you, when you create the space to actually engage in a process, and let's not qualify it by saying active listening, right? <laugh> , right

Speaker 2:

<laugh> ,

Speaker 3:

When we just listen, that means that I am actually demonstrating warmth and love. One of , one of the, the , the most beautiful and elegant definitions of love comes from Hebrew language. Uh, and again, as you all can hear now, I'm a person of faith. So you're gonna hear a lot of these elements, right ? I'm not trying , I'm not trying to push you , uh, in any type of direction. But love from a Hebrew, from the Hebrew language isn't what love isn't what something, or what someone is doing for me, when I say I love someone, it means what I'm willing to give of myself for someone else. And there , there , there , there's a , there's a different dynamic. So for instance, when we say, oh, I love going to , um, olive Garden, right? Um, you're not giving anything. Olive Garden, you're receiving, you like going to Olive Garden, you enjoy going to Olive Garden, right? Or if I say that I, I, I love , uh, baseball, it's because it's because of , it's something that's being given to you through the process. But when we actually think about the origins of love, and from a Hebrew perspective, or Hebrew language, when I can deeply say that I love something or someone is that I'm willing to give of myself for that person. So actually, when we think about listening, listening is an act of love, right? That's exactly why people feel warm, that it, it increases serotonin and oxytocin in terms of connection. People want to feel heard and listened to. It's relationship centered. So when we think about the word listening, one of the first things that we need to also take in mind is that we are intentionally saying that this is not about me. This is about someone else. And that's the beauty of empathy, because empathy is not about me, it's about what's best for someone else. And as we think about, you know, the language of like, fiduciary and all these other different things, right? Um , is that not what that means is to put the best interest of a person first. So when we talk about the word, listen, I don't think that we, oftentimes , I foundationally perceive it in that way as this is, I need to create space to be intentional about decreasing myself so I can increase someone else. And if we looked at it that way that I'm demonstrating love by listening, then I think that takes us down a different path in a way in how we listen and listen intentionally and listen in a way that will promote action. Uh, and for me, I don't disconnect empathy from compassion. I think that they're a part of the same train, so to speak, that we engage in an empathetic process to end with a compassionate resolution. And for me, listening is love and from , but from the context that I mentioned . And if there's nothing else, if somebody's listening to this , uh, I want them to kind of internalize that and say, oh, do I listen to show and demonstrate love? Do I intentionally decrease so that someone can increase? Can I step back from needing to be the expert? To be the learner? And then utilizing, again, my expertise to take these pieces and the tools that I have , uh, to utilize what I've learned to create the most effective strategy for the person I'm trying to serve.

Speaker 2:

I really am excited for your new book that is called Black Financial Culture Building Wealth From The Inside Out. I think this is a segment that needs to be heard, and I love that you're showing that empathy. Tell us more about your book. When do we expect it? What's gonna be inside? We're all excited to see what happens. Tell us more.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, actually. So it's, again, it's, it's , uh, black financial culture building wealth from the inside out. Um, and really the big picture is approaching this idea or these conversations about money from an internal perspective first, that then manifests itself externally, and then utilizing a lot of references that are, are rooted in black culture , uh, whether it's , uh, rap lyrics or certain experiences that you may have that's customary to black culture. But I'll be honest with you, what I've realized in terms of a lot of my work, honestly , uh, a lot of things that are considered black culture, you'll find in other cultures as well. Um, so there's also a universality , uh, appeal of the book if perceived in that way, because what we'll find is that a lot of the stories that I present , uh, a lot of ideas that I present , uh, there's sticky tissue , uh, between those. And whether you're black or white, I think that you'll be able to see yourself in this book, maybe struggle with the same things as an individual or within a family dynamic. Uh, but it also provides a safe space to unpack the, the intimate side of of money , um, with some calls to action , uh, that encourage individuals to either address things as it relates to themselves or for family dynamics. Um, then that ultimately leads with basically me not prescribing what's optimal for a household or how to define black financial culture , uh, but to get people to think thoughtfully about what is culture in their household and how does that culture, the precedent of that culture, impact relationship with money, conversations about money, the capacity to achieve things with money , uh, that go beyond what we've always done, or these limiting beliefs or whatever it may be, to engage in a journey of self exploration , uh, to where they can then unpack, redefine, and they decide what they want financial culture to be, and hopefully to be confident to know that even if they don't have all the answers, that there's a whole host of resources. So the book will be kind of two parts . So there'll be a book, and I'm also gonna do a video series that goes into more detail about more of the technical aspects of the things that we talk about in the book. Uh, that's more visual, that's more, this is how you do this, this is how you navigate this , uh, to take away the stress. And for, for people to actually, to just kind of have somebody to basically engage in a little bit of handholding as maybe they may be engaging in some things that they've never engaged in before, to develop their confidence , um, and they're , and to basically affirm the fact that they can take steps, they can get it done, and they can have a positive impact moving forward. So that , that's the book in a nutshell. Um, and I'm excited about it. And my hope is that we'll , we'll have something ready to go by by the Christmas time holiday. Uh , so I'll be trying to do a rollout around that time, and I think it'll be a great stocking stuffer or a gift to give , uh, to an entire family so that the family can be thinking about these things. And in thinking about things as a family dynamic in terms of what are we doing , uh, not just individually, but collectively , uh, to engage in this process of, of effective money management. And then how are we all sowing towards this common good in terms of wealth creation for the whole, and not just thinking about it from an isolated standpoint of individualism. So you're , you'll get those themes , uh, black cultural references , uh, but I'm not telling people what to do. I am actually encouraging people to actually, to start to think about what they're doing and to assess for themselves whether or not what they're doing is optimal. And if they feel as if what they're doing is suboptimal, then I'll provide opportunities for them to take the next step in terms of what could be a better course of action. But I want them to own their financial journey. I want them to be able to decide and to dictate, and not for someone to tell them what culture should be, what they should do financially. I just wanna empower people , uh, to take bold action, to become lifelong learners and to, to understand that they have the capacity to own their financial experience. And that's all I'm doing. I'm just trying to nudge a little bit.

Speaker 1:

I can hear the coach and the educator in , in your voice as you talk about the book, <laugh> <laugh> , but I also just wanna call out what a unique perspective to offer video along with reading, because everybody approaches topics. Everybody has a different unique way of learning. And so being able to meet them where they are with different opportunities like that, I think is really special as well. You have a heart for service, and, and I do believe that A-F-C-P-E and the community that we serve, that is the common thread amongst our professionals and our members, is that heart for service. I'm curious, this marks the 30th year of the A FC, and I'm curious how you found the A FC and A-F-C-P-E and why you chose that designation.

Speaker 3:

I was introduced to A-F-C-P-E when I started the financial planning program at the University of Georgia. So when you're an incoming master's or PhD level student, one of the first things that you engage with is learning about the different conferences , uh, that students and faculty usually attend. Uh, and what , uh, are the components or aspects of, of each of these conferences to try to figure out and kind of find your space in , in personal finance? Uh , so I've, I've gone to other conferences and then af the A-F-C-P-E conference really resonated with me , uh, because just to kind of back, just kind of backpedal a little bit , um, I worked in two totally different professions prior to now being an educator at the University of Georgia. Uh , I served as an auditor , uh, and then I also worked in higher education. So in higher education , uh, I oversaw , um, the admissions process. Uh, and I also, towards the end of my work in higher education, I oversaw a financial aid. Um , and one of the things that I learned about working in my role as a director of financial aid , um, was that families are making very difficult decisions when deciding on where they're gonna send their son or daughter to school. Uh, so we would navigate financial aid award packages. We would look at out-of-pocket costs . I would even create worksheets where we would look at expected increases in tuition, room and board , uh, expected increases , uh, in federal dollars that someone could receive , um, based on these increases, and kind of calculate what, how much debt they would have at the end , uh, of their four or five years at the university, not the , at the college. And then also to consider, all right , well, this is degree , the degree that you're looking at and this is what the earnings is. Um , and then also work with families who hadn't saved and hadn't prepared. And then I would be on the, I would be on the phone with them sometimes at seven or 8:00 PM in the evening, and you would have a , a mom or dad crying, both men and women crying on the phone because, because they were frustrated about not being able to cover the calls to attend . And then they would literally ask me , um, should I borrow against the equity in my home? Or should I draw down for my 401k? Or should I, you know, take on a parent plus loan, so on and so forth, just to, to make this viable. And , uh, I really struggled with that. Um, uh, so much so that I was thinking, well, maybe we're reaching families too late in terms of just the financial side of paying and affordability, and maybe we need to do more sooner. Uh, so when I attended the A-F-C-P-E conference, what I found was that there were a whole host of people that were all about , uh, serving the whole person. It wasn't just a transactional affair, it was a relational affair. And many of these individuals like me led with the relationship first , uh, and use that to build upon, build upon how we transact in a way that's mutually beneficial. And that really resonated with me, and it was also serving the population that I wanted to serve. Now, mind you, when I was coming into the space, especially within financial planning, there was a lot of pushback in terms of serving middle class families. These conversations now about serving the middle class and , uh, serving young professionals and things of that nature wasn't really the conversation. It wasn't in vogue. It wasn't as sexy, quite honestly, and I'd always known that, well, that's the population that I wanted to serve. Um, and it wasn't until you got XY network, or is it XY Planning Network, where they really started to kind of push that narrative. And there were other people who were doing it as well, but they weren't receiving the same notoriety. Uh , because again, the stigma was why do you wanna serve that population? You can't make any money there. Well, what a lot of people didn't understand about me was that I'm not doing this to get filthy rich. Like for me, money is the conduit towards more strong and loving relationships between a spouse, if there's less financial stress, better relationships with your children , um, in terms of your capacity to engage and be present. If you have your finances under control, being a better part of your community , um, an instrumental part of your community, because you're not laden with financial stressors and things of that nature. You can be present, be active, and serve a role. Um , and that's where there was a disconnect for me with the financial planning procession and profession in general. Um, and then financial coaches , uh, and counselors , uh, was that financial coaches and counselors at that point in time were more amenable and open to, and it really was the spirit of A-F-C-P-E that was all about, yes, we can serve, there can be mutual benefit, and this is a population that we've seen that is being seen and we want to continue to lead in serving this group, even if the financial planning profession wasn't there yet. Uh , and that's what really resonated with me. And so I, I have to tip my hat to you all and the amazing work that you're doing , uh, because it's been absolutely profound, and I'm incredibly grateful for , um, all that A FCP has done to, to someone , to me. And , uh, I, I want you to know that I'm definitely paying it forward.

Speaker 2:

I wholeheartedly agree. I think A FCP in terms of community is unlike any other. In fact, I was just having a conversation with a couple other members earlier today about the conference and how , um, many places have offered hybrid conferences over the last couple of years. And regardless of the amount of money that is spent on the conferences, A-F-C-P-E is a standout because despite the small budget that they operate on, the quality of conference, whether in person or hybrid, is unsurpassed regardless of funds. And that is one of the things that I, I just mentioned to them. I said, it's because of the community and because of the way that we care about each other. And I love that it doesn't just reverberate inside of A-F-C-P-E-A part of the A FC is also caring about your clients in the same way that you care about your peers. And you can tell that people in the community are passionate just like you about helping people and listening to them and taking them where they are and helping in the way they wanna be helped and served. And I just love you've put it into so many words and , and jarred so many memories for me. So thank you for sharing. You know, at the end of each interview, we like to ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice to leave with our listeners, what would it be?

Speaker 3:

That money is not the main thing you are. And I feel, I feel as if a lot of times we, we spend , and I understand that money is important , uh, but money is only important to execute on things that we believe brings us joy, happiness, satisfaction, and so on and so forth. Um, and then too often we look to other people's lives to develop a sense of what joy and satisfaction should look like. Um, and we try to live vicariously through people, and then we get money and we try to do the things that they do, and, and then we still feel empty. We still feel as if it's not enough. And then we look to someone else's life and oh, maybe they have it all figured out. Maybe it's time that we step back and start to really think about not what's marketed to us, not what's presented to us as contentment and joy and financial wellbeing, but have the courage to be able to step back and say that, you know what, this is what really makes me happy. Regardless of what if just reading a book under a tree makes you happy. That's wealth. If having the space to have family game nights on a Friday or a Saturday, and there's laughter and there's popcorn and there's silliness, and if that's wealth for you, that's wealth for you. If taking a walk and just enjoying nature, watching the sun, watching the birds , watching the deer or the rabbit that just ran over , raced across the street, if that , if that just thrills you and that's, that's wealth to you, then create the space for it. Um , money is just a conduit to our desires and the things that we want and we hope for, but it will never serve us in the way that we hope that it will, unless we actually engage in a process to really understand ourselves , um, and what brings us joy and contentment. So I would just encourage people to start with you, get very, very clear on what brings you satisfaction, and then allow for money to facilitate those things. And it doesn't have to be grand. It can be incredibly simple, and that's okay. Actually, I would like to see more Facebook posts, a families playing Monopoly, <laugh> or Twister or families out in nature, taking a walk at a free park somewhere, right? We don't have to always take pictures of our highlights. We need to take picture of the simple things, so things that money can buy as well. Uh , so give yourself the space to be able to just say that, Hey, I enjoy reading and I don't care if anybody has anything to say about it. I'm gonna post about all the amazing books I've read. If you have a line item for that and it brings you joy, do it. It's okay, and I wanna see more of it. So money's not the main thing. You are, money's just a conduit to your desires. But I want you to really sit back and understand whether or not it's really what you want. Or if it's stuff that people told you that you've needed to be happy to have joy and contentment , uh, sometimes that might be in alignment, other times it might not. But just to get clarity around that and then engage in a financial process with being intentional, I think is gonna yield far greater results than just thinking, oh, that we have to have this amazing trip, or we have to have this amazing thing. Is it really what you want? And is it really gonna bring you joy? So engage in that and , um, I think that we'll have a lot more content and happy people in a sustainable way. <laugh>, I'll stop there.

Speaker 1:

Michael, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and giving us your time today on the show. Tell our listeners where they can connect with you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you can connect with me on LinkedIn , uh, and that's at Modem Solutions, and that's M-O-D-O-M solutions. And I'm also on Instagram at Modem Solutions. Uh , and I do a little bit of stuff on TikTok. Nothing amazing, extraordinary. I can't keep up with the young folks , uh, but I'm there as well , uh, and again at Mold M Solutions. So I'd love to be a part of your journey as well as you being a part of my journey. Uh, so if you want to connect in that way, let's connect.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Michael, for joining us. That was amazing, Rachel. I feel like every time I hear Michael, I just wanna say amen and close the book, like mic drop, right? It's just, amen. Amazing. He is literally the embodiment of empathy in his person, both on stage and in person. If you had the pleasure of ever meeting him, he's just a fantastic human being. There's one word that kept resonating to me throughout his discussion, and that's empowering. Not only is he empowering, but he empowers others to help. And there are just incredible ways that he helps so many people, but not by telling them what to do. And that's what I think is a really important distinction, is he's not an advice giver at all. In fact, if anything, he's a question asker. And by asking the right questions, people change their lives forever. And that's where I think Michael just excels.

Speaker 1:

Mary. What really resonated for me was his conversation and where he talks about being intentional in your own community and being the student. And I think that's something any professional or any person listening to this episode can take away, is that the person you're talking to knows themselves best. And so just taking that time to listen and giving the space to listen, you know, that's what builds that trust and that empathy. And then the other thing that really resonated just in my own life is his definition of love. And that love is what I'm willing to give of myself for someone else. So yeah, Michael, it is such a pleasure to have him on today. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.