Real Money, Real Experts

The Art of Storytelling and Story Listening with Dr. Preston Cherry

• AFCPE® • Season 4 • Episode 21

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Dr. Preston Cherry, AFC®, CFP®, CFT-1 is the Founder & President of Concurrent Financial Planning, the Head of the University of Wisconsin Green Bay Financial Planning Program, and also a keynote speaker at this year's AFCPE Symposium. Preston is passionate about the ways that storytelling and listening can help us better connect with clients, advance human lives, and inspire transformation. 

In this episode, Preston shares the influence of stories in his own life and how they have shaped his journey. We take a look at the ways stories can increase engagement and build trust. And we talk about mentors and opportunities to build yourself as a professional and deepen your human experience. 

This conversation was a fun one! Tell us what you think by engaging with us on social media, and make sure you're registered for the 2023 AFCPE Symposium!

Show Notes:

2:25 How Preston got to where he is now
6:10 How he uses storytelling with his clients
9:04 How to actually go about creating stories
9:48 Unpacking counter transfer
12:15 Increasing connection with the client without decentering them
14:45 Advice for AFCs and balancing empathy and vulnerability
17:41 The importance of practice
19:19 How to incorporate valuable lessons with students
22:14 Preston's final 2 cents

Show Note Links:

  • @drprestoncherry on all social media platforms
  • YouTube

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel De , executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A F C P E.

Speaker 2:

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a F c, and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth.

Speaker 1:

Dr. Preston Cherry is the founder and president of Concurrent Financial Planning and the head of the University of Wisconsin Green Bay Financial Planning Program. Preston empowers individuals to share stories and forming their financial resources and life's design to achieve financial wellness. Preston has over 15 years of financial services and academic experience, including financial planning, investment management, published research and top peer review journals, and extensive leadership in the planning profession. Preston has been cited by the New York Times, Forbes and Wall Street Journal, C N B C and Yahoo Finance. He's a C N B C advisor. Council member top 10 Investopedia 100 Top Financial Advisor 2022. Think advisor luminary finalist wealth management.com tend to watch in 2023, past president of the Financial Therapy Association, practitioner, editor of the award-winning Journal of Financial Planning and board member of the ERV Foundation. Preston is newly married, a cool uncle who writes poetry, and he has a vinyl record collection. Welcome Preston

Speaker 3:

<laugh>. Thank you both. I appreciate being here.

Speaker 2:

Now, Preston, we just wanna know after that, what do you not do? I think that would be a shorter <laugh> <laugh> . No, we're really excited to have you here today, and we're even more excited to have you as one of our keynote speakers this year at a f CPE's symposium. But before we dig into that, I wanna go back a little bit and I wanna figure out how did you get to where you are? So how did you even start working in this field?

Speaker 3:

Well, you know, I didn't even know this field existed, and I'm trying to introduce the field to young folks as I, on my professor duties, because my thing is, is that if people tap into their own story and their own money journey and experiences with money and, and involvement with money , then they'll want to maybe get into the career first. Their life and money will be better, and then they may want to get into the profession either type of way, whether it be coaching, whether it be planner. And so you asked me how I, I got into the profession. Well, we talked about it in the home, and this is what I'm talking about, connecting with your life and money story and your experiences, right? Is that we, I remember vividly conversations about money in our household, and that's a gift. That's a gift because those things don't happen all that much. You know, they're getting more popular now. But, you know, I'm Gen Xer that that wasn't as f frequent as then. And so then when I got to undergrad, I had have many mentors. He introduced me to financial planning at Texas Tech, and I was at Prairie View University at the time. And he said, well, you know, I think you may be interested into this, this career called financial planning. I was like, what's that? <laugh>? But you know, because of our conversations and my , a little bit of familiarity with life and money through my family, my sister and my parents have been married 45 years, you know, they were intentional about that. And then it just took off from there. And I wanna say that mentors have helped all the way through this process. And I always share that people are not self-made, even though even some of the research, you know, it kind of says, well, or you studies say, well, you know, we have self-made millionaires. I'm like, ah , well there's somebody that cared for you along the way. So, so you have these, these human transferences of wealth inside of individuals. So I wanna lead off with that because I , I owe a lot to a lot of people that have invested in me, so I appreciate them. And, and so when I was Texas Tech mentors there, long list. And I took my master's degree in 2006, then went out into the field, everything underneath the Sun Financial planner. I've been a junior planner, a leading planner, <laugh>, I , I've been , I've done everything right. I've been in leadership roles , I've been in retirement plan , institutional sales. I've done, I've done wholesaling, which was my financial planning background, helped my wholesaling years because, because I was trying, well, not trying to, I did very well building relationships, asking right questions. We hear all these terminologies in our field, motivational interviewing and so on and so forth. All of that helped me become a better wholesaler because I knew what it was like on the other side of the desk. And so I did that. And I was also co-managed money as well. I've been an investment portfolio manager. Again, my financial planning skills helped me there as well, because when you're investing money at a high level, then you have to care, you have to have some sort of, think a passion because you are rebalancing and selecting investments for people's livelihood, right, right now and in retirement. So I've done that. And then I went back to, to get the PhD in 2016, and then opened up my practice, my virtual practice in 2018. And so we're here. I mean, I'm a speaker and co-founding of FinTech, all of that. Oh , wow . Because of, I just launched that with a partner of mine. So it's , you know, all of this says to, to help the human condition, how are we advancing people's lives through financial advice and connecting with them in a human manner.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And Preston, that's kind of around the topic you'll be speaking about at the symposium this year. You're a firm believer that stories inspire transformation, and it sounds like storytelling was a large part of your upbringing and what brought you into this field in general. I'm curious if you can talk to us a little bit more without giving away the keynote <laugh> , but tell us about how you use storytelling with your own clients.

Speaker 3:

I know we see these posts on LinkedIn as far as professionals are concerned and saying, well, advisors should be listening, you know, 95% of the time and only talking 5% of the time. I'm like, okay, that's not a collaborative conversation, <laugh> . And, and how do you , how do you express vulnerability and connectivity with the people you're trying to serve? Well, you have a conversation, and obviously we're not sitting there waxing poetically about ourselves the whole time. And I get that. But I ask people all the time is , have you ever been on the telephone and it's radio silent on the other end, and you're just spilling your heart out and it's silent. It's like, are you still there? Right, <laugh> , it was like, no, you have no connection. You ready to hang up? You're like, you weren't listening, right? You didn't have anything to offer. So my thing is, with story sharing, storytelling, story listening, which is story sharing, it's a, it's a swap it's conversation. So people can then say, you know, me too, and then open with their story, and then the planner can dial back, right? But it also, it just creates that trusted vulnerable atmosphere. Talk about my, my grandmother and my grandfather rest his soul a lot, and my parents and so on and so forth. So I'll tell a quick story, which was my, my grandfather, when he came from Alabama to Kansas City, he, his brother taught him how to write a check, and he carried this check in his wallet until he passed away. So my dad tells me, you know, and so when my dad shared that story with me, and I started to understand more about the values and experiences that my grandfather believed about money and how he handled money and , and how he went about his life, all right ? And how , what in influence and impact that had on my dad. And then he shared that to me and my sister. See, I've shared that story with, with a , a few people where , and particularly clients. And they're like, wow, okay. So yes. And I pause just slightly for, I know we're on a cast and we don't want dead silence, but you should. It is because once you, when somebody says, oh, yes, and then they start talking, it's because you shared something and opened that door of vulnerability and connectivity, it sparked their story. And then they start with the information we start unlocking and uncovering at that point.

Speaker 2:

You know, I'm smiling on this end of the mic because , uh, you and I love storytelling. I think that you've run a delicate balance here, and I wanna dig into this a little bit more because we have, I mean, Brene Brown is probably one of the masters of storytelling that there is. And , and so here's where I think that as you're telling people, hey, and let's, you know, share stories and share about yourself, there's a couple of ways I wanna find out from you. Where do you go with this? One is, do you ever make up a story? How much trust do you have to have to tell a story that maybe isn't exactly spot on ? And how do you work with a client in that way? So let's start with that question and then go , I'll go to another one.

Speaker 3:

Some stories carry a little bit of fiction. 'cause you want to hide identities, okay ?

Speaker 2:

And

Speaker 3:

So, and so some of the stories are a mixture of experiences that said the more trustworthy or real the story is. I mean, and they're all real because they're not fictional accounts uhhuh , it's, right . I , I may have two clients that where I joined the stories to together in order to give an experience, but I worked with both of those clients and, you know, they may have two different outcomes, but they were on the same continuum. So joining those two stories helps. But most of the time , uh, Mary, it's, I'm going telling stories right out of the heart. And, and because, and here's the thing. And the reason why about that is because we're asking the people we serve to open themselves and be vulnerable,

Speaker 2:

Right?

Speaker 3:

So why shouldn't we do do the same? You know? And we're not, Rick Taylor talks about this a lot, which is a big, big word. Counter transference . Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

<affirmative>

Speaker 3:

<laugh> . I know , I know. Y'all know that I'm talking No , I'm speaking to the choir here, right ? So, but ,

Speaker 2:

So , but explain what that is for those that don't. What is counter transfer ?

Speaker 3:

Sure. Where you as the coach or planner or professional are sharing and talking about themselves so much in order to maybe heal oneself on the job, right? And, and that's, that's not what the client came to you for. You know, that you have to do your self-healing far as the professional self-care on your own time. And that way you come into the relationship with a , with a clear mind, clear heart . And so you can pass on advice . Now, when you are sharing, the point is, is to help them help help them walk into their own story . That's the point. And people do wanna hear from you. They do wanna hear from you. And we've seen a lot on platforms now to where you're seeing it so much in social media, this, that, and the other people are walking towards stories. I know, oh my goodness, if I hear another, I paid off a hundred thousand dollars in debt stories , <laugh> , I'm gonna jump off, jump in a pool or something like that. But, but people do want these authentic stories. But it's, it's a , it's a delicate balance. Like you said, Mary, it's what is the intent? You don't want, it's not manipulation, it's not doing, trying to have self therapy on the client's time. What the intent is, is to help them walk into their own story and encourage, and

Speaker 2:

I'm really glad you ended with that because I think that is the most important thing. This is about the client. And the story is only there. Your story is only there to increase connection. And we know that stories resonate with people . You know, I mentioned Brene Brown earlier. If you don't know her, I'm sure you've heard a song by Taylor Swift <laugh> . And she's , she's really is, I mean, that's her craft is storytelling and music. And we know that people really resonate with stories and with connection. But I think you just hit upon that point, and maybe you can elaborate a little further of how do you, 'cause sometimes I walk, you know, you'll walk out of a meeting as the financial planner and say, man, that was the best meeting ever. And the client's, like, you didn't listen to a word I said, so how do we increase connection with the client but not decenter the client where it's more about you than it is them? What's that balance?

Speaker 3:

Therein lies some of the art. You know, some things in life don't require so much detail and explanation. You just know it when you know it. Right . And I know that's, that's not gonna satisfy some folks, particularly all these PhDs on here, on this, on this Stuff , <laugh> . But, you know, we're human beings. We do, we do know if we're connected with, now you can, you can survey, you know, clients and there are tools for that too. You know, that's one of my, one of my FinTech explorations right now. But things, man , you have to ask, I mean, do the clients feel connected? Do they feel understood? Number one. And then number two, is their life and money con connected? And have you, have you made that happen as a professional? And the reason I say that is anecdotal, anecdotally, yes, we just feel alright . And then also you can ask and see how , uh, I guess powerful and meaningful and measurable your relationship is with your client and client to planner as well. But some things you just feel, you just feel, and that just takes , that comes with the experience. You know, I , I share with people all the time. I said , you know what, you know, Michael Jackson was moonwalking at nine <laugh> , you know , <laugh>, you know , he , he's been dancing till nine. He , he was dancing at nine and he came out with the Moonwalking at 19 or 20 <laugh> , right? So some things just come with experience. And so, you know when to not over talk and dial it back. But you need mentors and guidance and you need to see it. You need to hear about it as a professional in order to do it. Well, alright ,

Speaker 1:

Preston, I was actually trying to mood walk at ninth , third grade <laugh> man in the mirror. We had had a whole dance. I I failed miserably, <laugh>. Um , so I , I'm curious, I know you also teach financial planning and I'm curious, a lot of this does require experience. So whether you're new to the profession, you're an a f C candidate gaining experience hours, what would you say to those that are trying this on that are, you know, starting to use storytelling but trying to find that balance between being empathetic and vulnerable and creating connection without counter transferring their own story into someone else's?

Speaker 3:

Yes. Uh , listen to podcasts like this. Everyone, <laugh> , <laugh> and Boo Walk . Yeah . And Boo Walk , right? <laugh>,

Speaker 1:

I'm still trying,

Speaker 3:

Right? But me too actually. Yeah, <laugh> , I think the world is trying still. But yes, you know, is asking, reaching out. If you trying to build yourself as a professional and wanting to deepen your human experiences, then you do listen to pod jokingly. You do listen to podcasts, you do read, you know, our friend Megan Lurz over Dr. Megan Lurz over, you know, she's has great writings. I mean, so if you read, oh my goodness, the Queen, Ms . Sandra Davis, I mean, so <laugh> <laugh> , when, when you're hearing , when you are investing the time to become a better professional in these areas, then things start just seeping into you. There's so many, there's so many examples of that. I mean, Michael Jordan mean he got stuff from Dr. J , right? <laugh>, <laugh> , col , Kobe mimicked Mi , Michael Jordan , Michael Jackson got back from Smokey Robinson. I mean, here we go. You know , all the pop radio now, pop radio, whether it be rap country, this, that, and that, it's all like stuff from the seventies, right? So

Speaker 1:

Learning from the best,

Speaker 3:

Learning from the best. This is what I'm saying. If you invest the time, then you can learn things like timing. For example, Mary, you asked me, how do you know Rachel? You asked, you know, how , how do you know when you're oversharing or doing counter transference ? Well, there's, there's a time not over talk , talking to client, not not interrupting the client while they're speaking. Allowing silence to foster the next dialogue coming from someone. Alright ? That's hard. Where, where that , where most people are not comfortable with silence and especially new people to the profession, you do have to give that pause. Tonality, okay? How , how are you using, how are you demonstrating your tone to other folks to welcome , welcome the memoir. Are you on 10 the whole time, you know, or are you are , are you using your tone in order to encourage some sharing as well? And those are the four or five we can go. That's an endless list by the way. And

Speaker 2:

I think what you're really getting at here, or what I hear you say, a lot of this is learning from others, but also practice. Isn't practice, practice, practice. So important.

Speaker 3:

Oh, most definitely. I mean, and there's a backstory to Alan Iverson's famous practice thing. So we're talking about practice, we're talking about practices. Everybody just go YouTube, that Alan Iverson practice, we're talking about practice. So basically I'm saying that multiple times, because the whole clip is saying, are we talking about practice? It's like 20 times. He says it like 25 times. <laugh>, <laugh> . But yes, practice. And there's a backstory actually, there's a human, a story. Back to that story too. Alan was going through some things at the time. He had lost a dear friend and, and they asked him about practicing and he was an all star . He said , listen, I've done my practicing over the years. I could just come to the game and do it. And, and so that humanizes that story, by the way. It's funny. But then there's a human story behind it. What's my point about that? Which is yes, practice does matter. And to Alan's point, you do get to a point to where you've practiced so much. I mean, that now it's embedded in you, you know, you could come to the game and, and get it. In a matter of fact, we were just talking before we started the cast, we were like, okay, are we gonna go through the instructions? We're going through the headphones , this , that , and the others . Like, you know, I've done the practice already. We've done that already. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

<affirmative> . So

Speaker 3:

We were able, we were able to jump in. So practice does matter. All the, and you keep learning, you keep learning. That said, once you've practiced and invested the time, then it becomes a part of you.

Speaker 2:

I wanna go, let's switch over. 'cause you've got so many hats. And by the way, I really appreciate the fact that we would get into music. 'cause you have quite the vinyl record collection, and I know you have a story for every single person. We have to bring music into this, okay ? But we're gonna also switch you from practice into your research, your teaching job. Okay? And so you're teaching at the, you're the head of the financial planning program at the , uh, Wisconsin Green Bay. How do you incorporate these lessons with your students? And what do you think the value is of teaching this at this early stage of their career for their longevity? What's it gonna look like for them? Yes.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for that question. Because out of the many hats, connecting with young people at their formative years is one of the most gratifying hats that I can wear. Uh , because I'm big on this statement or this phrase, which is advancing the human condition. What are we doing in our lives that have advanced the human condition? And college right now is being so much discounted, far as its value nowadays. What's the r o i ? Why am I here? Why don't I start my own being all this ? I mean , it's endless really. If you peel the onion back during those formative years of say 17 to 21, 22, 23, all right ? Those are those years to where you're picking up a lot of scripts, a lot of self, you're, you're being introduced into the world , this , that and the other . You are trying to, to latch on to your curiosity and see what direction it's going to go. So this is why I'm talking about the human development. What does that have to mean? What does that mean to the question that you asked me? Which is personal finance. Personal finance. It is one of the 100% only r o i classes you could ever take in your life . <laugh>

Speaker 1:

So true.

Speaker 3:

It will pay for itself. Uh , I mean exponentially. I mean, oh my goodness. Right? And then it also helps when, when I'm sharing with young people stories that we kicked off with, how did you know that financial planning was a thing? Or personal finances? Where's the thing? What are your experiences with money? What are your values? What's your culture? Right? So I say all the time lead with financial compassion before you get to the financial education, which increases financial literacy and then gets to wellness. So this is where we are, we're connecting with these young people right now or, or folks at career changes , whatnot . But mostly young people. And if we can get them involved and connected with themselves, again, we're back to helping people connect with their own story, then that is the catalyst to carry that forward through their lifetime. So it's very important that those that are working with people at every life stage to know that you are helping people advance their human condition and how big of a responsibility that is. 'cause they may not come back.

Speaker 1:

Well Preston, we could probably talk to you for hours. I think Mary and I have all kinds of questions and we wanna save some for this fall as well. But we do end every interview with one question. If you had to share one piece of advice with our listeners, what would it be?

Speaker 3:

I would say that I just post about this, your self-worth is not your net worth. We know that. Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:

<affirmative> .

Speaker 3:

But your self-worth helps produce your net worth. Yes, yes. And because when I was, when we were talking earlier about how people have invested in us, we have so much inside of us. And if we are more the higher levels of worthiness, of value, of input that we have from others that care about us, the knowledge, okay? And if we can be healthier human beings, then we can use that capital, that human capital than to go produce be. And that's kind of the production function. We'll get into that later on. But you can use that to go produce net worth.

Speaker 2:

Preston, I think we're all in for real treat in November. We're very excited to have you on stage. And the best part that I love is never are two experiences with you the same like <laugh> . So buckle up, brace yourself and just what an incredible journey. And I love the fact that you're bringing your wealth of experience. And it's not just from a research based perspective, which is very important that you've got the evidence to back up what you're saying, but you're really bringing it to tangible, how do I apply this to every day ? To my clients, heck, to my family, and to my spouse. And how do you utilize these components that we've researched and know about psychology, but really bring them to where it matters and where you care. So Preston, with that, we are excited to have you. Thanks for joining us on the show. Can you tell our listeners where they can connect with you

Speaker 3:

At Dr . Preston Cherry ? So Dr. Preston Cherry at all the socials, and then also at Life Money Balance on YouTube.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much,

Speaker 2:

Rachel. It's always so fun to talk to Preston. You know, there's so many different ways and angles we can go. He's a fun person. And in fact, I have to admit, this is probably the first and most talked about episodes in terms of music, <laugh> and basketball and all kinds of players. And I love how he makes life so relatable, right? And really brings in experiences from all kinds of backgrounds and walks of life. And I think that's the part that people really resonate with. And he really is a master storyteller. And I think that is definitely a craft and a trade to be heard. So I think there's a lot that people are gonna be able to get out of his speech in November. I'm excited to be there, looking forward to hearing that myself. And just learning from someone who utilizes, I think that's the key, is utilizing these evidence-based practices. And yet he does it so beautifully that you don't even recognize how much depth and breadth that really adds to a discussion and conversation. And so I'm looking forward to learning from the master himself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too. And you know, what I really liked too was his humbleness and his gratitude for all of the people that have touched his life and his experience. He talked a lot about practice and learning and I think really that the art of having mentors not even early on in your career, but throughout your career. And so what an important lesson, both as a practitioner, but also in his case as professor who's continuing to mentor young minds into the field. And then the one thing that really resonated with me was his question that he always asks himself, and I would just leave that with the listeners today, is what are we doing to advance the human condition? I think that is so powerful and something that I hope to , you know, kind of think about as I continue to do this work and our listeners continue to do this work, kind of takes us back to why we got into the profession in the first place. So really excited to have Dr. Cherry join us. This I keep saying November. Our symposium is November 29th through December 1st, so into December this year. But lots to look forward to this fall. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.