Listening for Readiness with Dr. Erika Rasure

"The greatest gift we can give our clients is providing that space where they can find the presence of the feeling that they are not alone.” 

Today’s guest, Dr. Erika Rasure, is a financial therapist and deep transformational coach; the Chair of the Research Board for the Financial Therapy Clinical Institute; and a Client Financial Therapist for Beyond Finance.

In this episode, we discuss the biases that exist within the industry; how money stories and very human decisions are too often surrounded by embarrassment or shame; and the importance of helping people move through financial trauma.

Show Notes:
3:07 Erika's journey into personal finance
5:17 Being a deep transformational coach
7:19 Political science to therapy
8:50 Working with Beyond Finance
12:00 A story that has resonated with Erika
15:32 Meeting people where they are
17:26 How counselors utilize therapy without becoming a therapist
21:21 Erika's final 2 cents

Show Note Links:
Connect with Erika on LinkedIn

Today’s episode is sponsored by Beyond Finance, whose mission is to help individuals and families struggling with debt find a pathway to financial freedom.

Beyond Finance is currently hiring Accredited Financial Counselors to provide clients with one-on-one virtual financial counseling sessions in areas of budgeting, credit building, and creating a values-driven action plan. Positions are remote and offer flexible schedules. To learn more, visit careercenter.afcpe.org.

Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Today's episode is brought to you by Beyond Finance. Beyond Finance is on a mission to help everyday Americans escape the endless cycle of crippling debt and step into a brighter future through compassionate individualized care. They work with clients who have unsustainable debt levels, negotiating with their creditors to reduce their balances to reasonable amounts so that they can reset the relationship with the financial system. The Beyond Finance team is hiring accredited financial counselors to provide clients with one-on-one virtual financial counseling sessions in the areas of budgeting, credit building, and creating a values driven action plan. Positions are remote, offer flexible schedules and require an afc. You'll also receive training unique to areas of debt resolution and financial therapy. If you want to learn more, visit career center dot afc p.org or find the direct link in our show notes. Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money and the real world . I'm your host, Rachel Deleon, executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for A F C P E.

Speaker 2: 1:22

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson , an accredited financial counselor, or a ffc , and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth. Dr. Erica Rasher is an accomplished financial therapist and deep transformational coach. She is the chair of the research board for the Financial Therapy Clinical Institution and is a member of the Financial Review Boards for Investopedia, the Balance Very Well family and very well parents. Notably, she is a client financial therapist for Beyond Finance, a first of its kind role in the debt resolution industry. As an educator and researcher, she is internationally recognized as one of the most influential female personal finance and financial therapy experts in the world. For 15 years, she's offered financial therapy, coaching, planning solutions, educational planning and educational programming, CX research and training services to individuals, financial advisors, and executive level management and stakeholders of organizations looking to improve their financial wellness. She is also the founder of Crypto Gladys , a private members only community created to educate, inspire, nurture, and connect women who are intrigued by the crypto verse and want to learn what it's going to take to master their personal finances, careers and relationships now and in the future. Fun fact, she recently was married on April 14th and has a beautiful blended family of four kids, three dogs, and one cat. That is a lot. Welcome Erica

Speaker 3: 3:07

Show . Thank you so much for having me. It's, it's a lot, but it's good. It's awesome.

Speaker 1: 3:12

One of our favorite ways to get to know our guests is to ask about their origin story and the personal finance profession. And so can you take us back and tell us a little bit about how you found your way to financial therapy? Yeah,

Speaker 3: 3:26

I completely bombed the lsat, the <laugh> <laugh> , yeah , the test again into law school . So , you know, I started off as an undergrad really thinking I wanted to become an attorney. My dad died when I was 13. He had multiple sclerosis and he was a , a veteran of the United States Air Force. And I grew up in a house where we did talk about money. And you know, it was kind of nice from that perspective because I, I knew at a very young age what the term guaranteed insurability was <laugh> . And the fact of the matter remains is that had my dad died, been diagnosed and not been in the military, he would've died without life insurance. And so, you know, I really wanted to become a lawyer to, you know, help people with estate planning and all of that. And then I started getting into it as an undergrad and I was like, Ooh , I don't, I don't know if I love this. And so I didn't really study for the lsat. I kind of, you know, wandered around, lost for a little bit at the time I was, I also had a part-time job as a radio dj and I loved that, but I really was kind of wandering around aimlessly. So I didn't study for the lsat and that was kind of my indicator. I knew the score was gonna be bad and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna find something else. And I was going to school in Columbia, Missouri. And so I was looking at programs at Mizzou and I , I came across the personal financial planning department and I was like, wow, this is incredible. And so I , Dr. Deanna Sharp at the time was the graduate studies director. So I emailed her and I said, Hey, this is where I'm at. This is in intriguing. And I went and talked to her and that's what really led me on the path into personal financial planning. So that's where I started my masters .

Speaker 2: 5:01

You know, that's one of my favorite questions cuz I love finding out why people are passionate about what they do. And Erica , your story is fascinating, especially how your dad has impacted your life and your profession to this day, and now how you're trying to help others.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Yeah, absolutely. It just sticks with me and it makes me smile when I think about it.

Speaker 2: 5:17

So you describe yourself as a financial therapist, but also a deep transformational coach. Tell us more about what this means and how it shares the continuum of care alongside financial planning, counseling, or therapy.

Speaker 3: 5:29

Absolutely. So this is, you know, kind of an exciting new development in my life. You know, as I, you know, I , I went the trajectory of being a practitioner to a university professor for about 10 years. And last year I , I left the university setting and went into, you know , financial therapy and coaching full-time. I've been doing that since 2008 ish . And it's been really, really fascinating to kind of see how, you know, financial therapy has evolved along with , you know , the coaching and counseling practices alongside it . One of the things I think is so fascinating about the transformational piece of this, you know, is when people are working with their finances, and obviously finances intersect with every other aspect of our lives, you know, it's a very challenging process that requires us , requires us to really kind of discover, you know, what's authentically ours and not just the influence of other people and other systems and institutions. And so it's really that practice, that process of allowing things to come to the surface so we can serve ourselves better in a broader capacity for self-awareness and perception. And so that's where the deep coaching process comes in to really help people integrate the meaning and purpose and direction of what wants to emerge from the real depths of their being, the actualization of their full potential as a person, as you know, as somebody who understands where they've been, where they are, where they're going, where they want to go, and really let them, you know, feel into that presence, that inner being and their authentic self as they're going into this process of hopefully, you know, rapid growth and kind of unraveling, you know, again, all of those things and that spirit of renewal and understanding who they are and what their purpose, value, and place is in the world as it relates to not only finances, but every other aspect of their

Speaker 2: 7:19

Life. Wow. Erica, you have such a intimate discussion about money, and not just about money, but about human beings. And I have to go back and say, wait, you and I both were a political science undergrad here. Yes . And you got into this personal financial planning space. Walk me through, how did you go from poli sci all the way to this very in depth therapist role?

Speaker 3: 7:42

Oh my gosh. And I don't think I knew that about, about you, which is incredible because , you know, when you think about political science, you know, what is political science at its core? You know, it's really kind of that understanding of these, you know, different comparative perspectives and these ideologies and, you know, processes and behavior <laugh> across

Speaker 2: 8:00

All kinds

Speaker 3: 8:01

Of groups . Good point . And classes and you know, so socioeconomic, economic, straight , you know, we have all of these things that these, it's these systems of, of governance, right? It's, it's how things are done, how things are, are supposed to be done. And so I think what's so fascinating about that, you know, that influencer or that relationship there is that, you know, financial planning or people's intimate, intimate financial lives are so related to how we classify ourselves and our perspectives. And especially in that realm of, I think what's right and wrong, right? We have so many conversations about what is politically right or wrong, what's financially right or wrong, what's good and bad. And, and it can become very black and white. And so I think over time I've learned that I really enjoy kinda the polarity of the black and white, but it's that gray stuff in between. That is super interesting.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Erica , you're also working currently as a financial, a client, financial therapist at Beyond Finance. What led you from private practice into this role?

Speaker 3: 9:01

I think it's important to, you know, kind of make that distinction here. You know, as I'm still in private practice and, and I consult with beyond finance, I'm not an employee, but you know, what's, what's really interesting about my work at Beyond and , and how I got involved there. You know, they, they reached out to me about over a year ago, and first I thought it was kind of a scam, you know, and they know this, they know that this is part of my origin story, if you will, with them. But, you know, I think so many of us who have been involved in the financial planning and traditional financial services space, you know, we have a certain perception, a certain bias against the debt resolution industry. And I say that in all honesty because I think it's something that does need to be said is that, you know, historically that has been a very scammy industry. And for so many of us we're taught, you know, both in the classroom and, you know, with professional experiences that that is not a safe space for us as professionals or for clients, right? And so when they reached out to me, I mean, my antenna just kind of basically went up and I was like, oh, I don't know if I wanna get involved with something like this. But at the same time I was super intrigued because this was the first time I had even heard of somebody, you know, really kind of at the corporate, you know, level or industry level and certainly that industry wanting to integrate something like financial therapy. And so I was, I was really interested in having a conversation, so I didn't shut it down immediately, you know, and I was like, you know what , what's the catch here? You know? And really as I, I talked to more people in the leadership of the organization, I, I learned that they were very much coming from a heart-centered place, you know, and really understood the potential value of financial therapy and bringing that to their clients and the value that that could potentially bring. And so that was when that clicked for me. When I was convinced that they were, they were operating from the right place, I was like, let's do this. And it's been such a humbling journey for me as a financial professional who's been, you know, in this space for a really long time , um, to really have to face my own biases, my own perceptions, not only of the clients themselves, but of the industry. And again, I can only speak to my experiences at Beyond Finance specifically. I don't know what other debt resolution organizations are doing or not doing, but I can tell you that in this role, in my interactions with their clients and leadership directly, my mind has been blown with the stories I've heard, the research I've done, the research continuing to do with this amazing team over there in ways to continual , continually help people really kind of embody and express, you know, who they are both inside and outside of their debt resolution program and get them to the place where they really want to be. And I think that has been, I mean, sometimes I feel embarrassed <laugh>, you know, about, you know, kind of those misconceptions I I had previously coming into this industry. Both, you know, on the client side and both on the, you know, organizational side,

Speaker 1: 12:00

Being mindful obviously of what you can share. Has there been a story or anything in particular that's really resonated with you or affected how you may work with even people in your own practice?

Speaker 3: 12:12

Absolutely. And you know, and that's the thing. There's been so many stories, you know, it's hard to count on one hand cuz I do, I interface with clients directly, you know , every week. And, you know, when I, when I first started, you know, wanting to reach out and talk to, you know, clients on the one-on-one level, you know, just starting the research portion of it to , so we could figure out what, what the right, you know, interventions would be. It was very surprising to hear some of these stories. So, you know, the, just in , I've been there, like I said, just about over a year I've met three different women who are, you know, in their sixties who are retired, who are single, who have been victims of love scams. You know, it's not something we see just on Dr. Phil, you know, it's, it's so, it's so, you know, put in in our faces, you know, from a talk show perspective or, and hearing that and hearing the emotion, the raw emotion and understanding at a very different level. You know, cause you watch, like Dr. Phil or something, you're like, man, how could these people be this dumb? Like we can all see it, right? But when you are face to face with them and you feel that raw emotion and you see how it's not only affected their finances, but their emotional state and their ability to trust themselves and then their ability to trust love and that they're grieving the loss of their finances and that they're grieving the loss of the love they were promised. And the shame and the guilt and embarrassment comes when they're unable to share that with their family members because they're afraid of being classified as a stupid old woman. I mean, that is just, it's shocking. It is shocking. And that's what I've learned, you know, from this process is every, everybody does have a story. You know, we , we , we love to talk in this industry, whether it's, you know, from the therapy side, psychology side, counseling side, you know , oh yeah, everybody's got their money story, rah rah . And that's true. We all do .

Speaker 1: 13:58

I love the focus on bringing financial therapy to this space because I think it's, it breaks down those elements of shame. You know, you're able to really meet them where they are and talk through why this is not personal, that this happens to other people, and that, you know, at the end of the day, they are worthy of finding their financial footing.

Speaker 3: 14:21

That's absolutely right. And you know, and worthiness is such a important part of this as is that aloneness piece. The community and support behind this, I think is something that has gone maybe slightly overlooked just because we didn't know, you know, I didn't know that this space existed. I didn't know there was potential, you know, to really help people in this kind of way. And again, that goes back to my own biases, my own hubris I guess, if you will . But, you know, those are the things that we learn. And this is what excites me so much about working with beyond Finance, is the fact that we're able to bring this back, you know, to the FTA to A F C P E , you know, to to the academic, you know, framework of this and say, Hey, we're learning stuff here. How can we learn from this? And as practitioners and academics really move forward and do something really cool with it in a place that we weren't really looking.

Speaker 2: 15:10

You know, Erica , one of the things I love about this story is recognizing myself and how quickly we can judge from an outsider's view, right? Mm . And that's, yes , I mean, as financial planners we are like, of course you should know about this, or financial counselors, right ? Or whatever our role may be. Or even just couch potato experts <laugh> ,

Speaker 3: 15:30

Right? I like that.

Speaker 2: 15:32

And it's so true of how a story and how it's not just a story, it's money stories. And that is multiple because we're constantly changing and evolving. And maybe what if each one of us had been judged on one stupid decision that we made in our lives, and how dare we judge someone else for a silly decision they made, unaware. And yet it will tarnish them for the rest of their life, right? And so that's what I think I heard when you said, when you shared that story is as an outsider to anyone's situation, money or not involved, how often we could step back and instead of throwing judgment, offer empathy as a differentiator.

Speaker 3: 16:18

Absolutely. I mean, you hit the, you hit the nail on the head there, you know, and, and I feel like there's this element of voyeurism, right? I mentioned Dr . Phil or , you know, any other reality tv you know , we, we are on the outside looking in and we, we are very quick to judge and it's kind of fun to judge, right? Like we get, there's all that research out there. We get so much excitement from that voyeurism until you are actually seeing it in the effects it has in real life. You know, real life is not reality tv. It's not scripted. And we have a tendency, I think, as human beings to want to live by some sort of script. And this is a theme I've seen in my work with the clients at Beyond Finances, is they've created a script for themselves, but they've also created a script that is rooted in non-reality, but they're taking it as their own. They're, they're taking ownership. And I think this is something so fascinating, is that they're taking ownership not only for, you know, their, their own missteps or their own challenges or their own mistakes, but also I see that they're taking, you know, responsibility for the stuff that they can't control. And I find that a fascinating part of this piece too,

Speaker 2: 17:26

Erica, it's amazing to listen to you and hear all of the skills and the theories that you're using in helping with clients. But I can imagine as a counselor, I'm sitting there going, I wanna be like Erica, I don't know how, so how do counselors utilize therapy in their own practices without becoming a therapist or a researcher?

Speaker 3: 17:48

I think what it really starts, you know, and kind of ends with is just the willingness to be curious and the willingness to understand, you know, or really kind of empathize a little bit with what's going on. You know, by, by trying to figure out, you know, how our clients' lives will be different, you know, when, when things change for them, whether, you know, they're, they're getting better with their, you know, general financial money management or if they've, you know, worked on healing some financial trauma. You know, I think the end goal is the same as that. We want to, you know, help them move forward in a, a practical, a sustainable way that has meaningful results for them . And I think for any client, you know, no matter what discipline they're in, that that meaningful result is going to, you know, vary results are going to vary. And I think it's really at tuning into what is important to that client and really trying to help the client get to a really strong sense of self in that process of what is meaningful to them. You know, what are, what are the money stories, the money scripts that they've kept for themselves? What is, you know, what is the range of their financial values and how is that informing you know, what they're doing with their money on the daily? And being able to kind of parse those things down and figure out, you know, serves the client, what no longer does, you know, what is it that they've inherited? You know, what is it that they've been given? Do those things still make sense? Do those things still serve them? And being able to help them just navigate that process and, you know, understand that they're not alone in that. And I think that's the biggest thing. I think there's strength and support and in any way you can be a support to a person, you know, it, it really helps 'em take, take back possession of their power. And I think that's just something that is so powerful, you know, across all disciplines that we're all strong in. And, you know, being able to take things, you know, from here or there, even if you don't want to fully, you know , go into the therapy space, especially if you don't feel equipped to do so. You know, there are those empathy pieces, those are those deeply connective human behavior pieces that we are all connected by, you know, and I think just appealing to everybody's humanity is a really key part of this , um, by helping people find the voice and being somebody who's willing to do the work on behalf of somebody and helping them find their voice.

Speaker 2: 20:10

You know? I love that, Erica . It's as simple as listening to someone. It's really learning how to be a friend to someone and empathizing and being with them through hard things.

Speaker 3: 20:21

Yes, absolutely. You know, and there's so many different types of listening out there, you know, there's, you know, however you wanna call it, you know, we can listen for readiness. I think that is, is something that I think is so key, is when you sense the readiness in somebody to make a change, you know, that can be done with anybody no matter what stage a person is at, right ? If, if there's some readiness, that means that they're ready to explore a completely new way of being. This is your opportunity to say, all right , I'm hearing you say that you are ready to do something different. And so it's posing the question to the , your client is , you know, who are you choosing to be? And then you can even take 'em a little bit further, you know? And , and that transformational piece is really getting to that driving question of who are you? Who am I? And it's creating a space that energizes that, that shift in be being instead of doing. And both are fine. Both are wonderful. And again, it's that continuum of care and that's something, you know, that all of these things can do together and be very healing for a client anywhere on that continuum.

Speaker 1: 21:21

Erica , at the end of all of our interviews, we like to ask our guests to share their two sentences . If you had one piece of advice to leave with our listeners today, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 21:31

The greatest gift we can give our clients and those we work with, is really providing that space where they can find the presence of the feeling that they are not alone. We're just not alone. We're all connected as a human race. And I think that is something we can all take with us and use to propel us forward as we let go of the things that just no longer work for us.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Erica, thank you. It's been a delight to have you on this show today. Please tell our listeners where they can connect with you,

Speaker 3: 21:57

LinkedIn slash Erica Rasher , his best place to find me . Thanks

Speaker 1: 22:01

Erica.

Speaker 3: 22:02

Thank you so much. Take care,

Speaker 1: 22:04

Mary. It was really great having Erica on the show today. I really loved some of the stories she shared about the clients that she's working with, not in her private practice, but in some of her work with Beyond Finance. And she really comes from this heart-centered place and her interactions with clients. I loved our conversation around the importance of worthiness and helping all people find their financial footing and really sort of that advice she spoke to at the end in terms of just the willingness as financial professionals to be curious, to meet people where they are and to be listening. And that really interesting idea of listening for readiness. So what a really interesting conversation we had today.

Speaker 2: 22:50

She was so personal. I mean, I love the fact that she shared her personal story of how that impacted her and how that transformed her to become a transformational coach and help other people change. That to me is so impactful as well as it's just fun sometimes to listen to people. And she is definitely one that I could sit at her feet and just listen for hours about how she empathizes with people. You can hear it in her voice and how she talks and asks questions that she's really truly invested in that individual that she's in the room with of wanting to help them wherever they're at. And the best way is how she summed it up at the end. You know, so often I think as professionals, we're ex thinking, the client's expecting us to come with some great magic solution to their problem. But Erica answered it. The solution is being an empathetic listener. And the more we become better listeners and show more empathy, the more those clients will change and they will feel heard, they will feel loved, they will feel cared for. Like that was what they were looking for. They just needed to feel loved and it became a scam. And so by showing that to others can really help them in so many ways, is showing that you care enough to listen.

Speaker 1: 24:06

And for all of you who are listening, leave us a rating and review. If you wanna be on the show. Our guest form is on our website, so fill that out. And we have lots of great episodes ahead this season. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.