Our guest today, Michael Kothakota is the head of research at the CFP Board. In this episode, we learn about Michael’s path into financial services, and how the AFC curriculum - on the way to becoming a planner - helped broaden his perspective and enabled him to better support clients.
We discuss how critical it is for financial professionals to be able to effectively connect solutions to human needs, and the importance of relational skills and building trust with our clients. We also get a glimpse into the early stages of CFP Board’s client impact study and are reminded how important it is not to build a profession on anecdotes.
Show Notes:
1:56 Mike's journey into financial planning and research
5:56 Building an integrated continuum of personal finance
9:12 CFB board's addition of financial psychology
13:16 Into his role as research director
17:45 Metrics around financial behavior
19:43 The importance of research in the finance industry
23:17 Advice for students or career changers into financial planning
26:18 Mike's final 2 cents
Show Note Links:
CFP Board Research and Resources
JFCP Research Journal & AFCPE Research resources
Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!
Want to support the podcast? We love partnering with organizations that share our mission and values. Download our media kit.
Our guest today, Michael Kothakota is the head of research at the CFP Board. In this episode, we learn about Michael’s path into financial services, and how the AFC curriculum - on the way to becoming a planner - helped broaden his perspective and enabled him to better support clients.
We discuss how critical it is for financial professionals to be able to effectively connect solutions to human needs, and the importance of relational skills and building trust with our clients. We also get a glimpse into the early stages of CFP Board’s client impact study and are reminded how important it is not to build a profession on anecdotes.
Show Notes:
1:56 Mike's journey into financial planning and research
5:56 Building an integrated continuum of personal finance
9:12 CFB board's addition of financial psychology
13:16 Into his role as research director
17:45 Metrics around financial behavior
19:43 The importance of research in the finance industry
23:17 Advice for students or career changers into financial planning
26:18 Mike's final 2 cents
Show Note Links:
CFP Board Research and Resources
JFCP Research Journal & AFCPE Research resources
Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!
Want to support the podcast? We love partnering with organizations that share our mission and values. Download our media kit.
Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast. We're leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world . I'm your host, Rachel DeLeone , executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for AF C P E .
Speaker 2:And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson, an accredited financial counselor, or afc , and the President of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community, and your professional growth. Today our guest is Mike cofa Kota . He is the head of research at the CFP board. Mike develops and conducts studies to examine client outcomes for the public. He creates research to identify industry trends and leads business intelligence at the CFP board. He also develops new research and resources for CFP practitioners. Before his appointment at CFP board, Mike was a financial planning practitioner for 17 years, working at a large regional firm for three years, and he is currently the CEO of Wolf Bridge Wealth, a Raleigh based financial planning r AA firm. Mike has provided consulting services to financial technology company, bento , Inc . Income Lab, and Penn Fin . He's also a partner of the data science from Data Tracks, where he provided data science consulting to government organizations, nonprofits, and small businesses. In addition, he has taught financial planning and wealth management courses at Kansas State University, the University of Georgia, and Columbia University. Mike is a Tillman scholar and he holds a master of science in predictive analytics from Northwestern University and a PhD in financial planning from Kansas State University. Welcome, Mike.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Glad to have you. Mike, thanks so much for taking the time to come on today's show. Tell us a little bit about your personal journey into this field. How did you get into financial planning and research and financial planning? My
Speaker 3:Origin story is a little interesting, at least I think it's interesting. Maybe not other people don't, but when I was in eighth grade, I took a home economics class and it had a list of occupations and what the expected salaries were, and the top of that, this particular list for some reason was biochemist. And so I decided that that's what I was gonna do. And so I went to school for biochemistry. I did fairly well in my classes, but my instructors actually got me a job at the National Institutes of Health as a research assistant, and I hated it . Turns out I , I did not like lab work, and so I was kind of lost for a little while. And they took one of those little quizzes that they give you at the career centers at universities. And , uh, the first nine categories were healthcare related , nurse, physician, E M T, et cetera . And then , uh, number 10 was financial planner. And I actually didn't know anything about financial planning. Didn't know what financial planning was , uh, never heard of it. I mean, obviously like I , I'd heard of accountants and CPAs, but had not heard of that. And I thought, well, okay, well then I , that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do that instead. I quit my job at the nih and , um, I was working in security management , uh, while I was finishing up school. The problem there is I kept getting promoted and it kept delaying my entry into the field. And then about 2003, my National Guard unit was activated to go to Iraq <laugh> . So I had about 15 months, actually, it was closer to 20 months if you include train up 20 months , um, away from my job. And so I had that distance and was able to gain some perspective on, you know, do , am I ever gonna really do this thing where I, I go become a financial planner. And , uh, when I came back, I quit my job and applied to the number of firms and got hired on at , uh, Edward Jones, actually, and stayed there for three years and then started my own farm 2008, 2009. Perfect timing. Mm-hmm . <affirmative>. Um, for those listening who don't remember what that was like, it was pretty rough. And financial services probably not the best type of business to start, but I did and survived. And once, you know, our income stabilized, I was able to, you know, think about what I was gonna do with the rest of my GI bill. And I went back to school to get a , i , I thought, well, I don't , I wanna do something different, so let me do this , uh, predictive analytics thing. I've always been interested in math and data and, but when I was younger, was told that I wasn't really good at it. So turns out, you know, with Yeah, I know. Isn't that where turns out with the right instruction and the right motivation, you can be , uh, you can overcome some of that. You know, the other thing, somebody, my art teacher told me that I was, that I drew something one time and she said that I was the worst artist she'd ever seen. Isn't it terrible for me ? No . <laugh> . So yeah, I, it turns out I'm, I'm pretty good at it. And I thought, well, you know, I'll integrate this into my practice and figure out better ways to, you know, optimize not only the business, but just how I deliver services. And then I was going to give the rest of my GI bill to my daughter, and then they changed the law, said you had to reenlist. My wife said, no, <laugh> . So also I , I , I said, no. I said, no. My body said, no, for sure, <laugh> . Um , so I went back to school , uh, to get to PhD in financial planning from Kansas State. And I refined my research skills. I took, you know, I was able to learn a lot more about theory, a lot more about constructing, you know, research design, constructing research projects, asking research questions. Since then, I've been, I fell in love with research. So it's my , it's my, it's, it's the thing that sings to me. It's the thing that motivates me and gives me purpose. Mike, your story
Speaker 2:Is really interesting because you've held so many different positions and done various things, but I like the fact that you've seen financial services from both the ground level, but also at a bird's eye view , uh, for several years in the various positions you've had. You've also been in various fields from financial planning, financial counseling, financial therapy. So I'd like you to talk a bit more about what it looks like to build an integrated continuum of personal finance. Like, do you have to only be a financial planner, or how can you become more integrated as both a counselor and a planner?
Speaker 3:You know, what I did miss in that bio, I actually got my A F C before I became a cfp . One of the reasons I did that is because during the crisis, and I promise I'll answer your question, but one of the reasons I did that was a lot of the people who came to me during the financial crisis were people who were going through divorce. Um, and they needed, they needed help with determining what their life was gonna look like after post divorce , what it was gonna look like during divorce, however , they were gonna finance the divorce. And it turned out that the attorneys themselves, you know, while they were very skilled in the law, they knew the rules, but they didn't know, you know, what the downstream effects were. And I did not have, you know, any sort of skills to cope with working with people who were in this really vulnerable state and who were in this, you know, they had this, this very traumatic thing happen. Uh, and I thought, well, you know, looked like maybe I need some, maybe I need some counseling skills. And , uh, and then a lot of the things that I would have to do with those people a lot , especially early on, was, you know, people were going into debt, their assets were wiped out. The AFC curriculum was really helpful, you know, broadening my perspectives, and I would start working with these people. And, you know, just the things I remember just from the, from the exam where, you know, we're talking about active listening, reflecting back, those things were so helpful in communicating with people and getting them to a point where they would, you know, actually take my advice. A lot of, a lot of people, and in fact in, in most states, the financial expert of choice is a C cpa, and the CPAs come in and they know how to fix the problem. They know how, they know how to assess the situation. And so they come in and they're very prescriptive and they don't listen to the client. Sometimes what's optimal is not what's, is not what's best, what's, what's financially optimal is not what's best. So, you know , that that enabled me to be somebody who was able to connect, you know, financial planning to the counseling portion of it. And I , I actually started giving talks to lawyers and saying, Hey, look, you guys are, you guys are doing this all wrong. You need to be talking to people about how they feel, what they need , um, their backgrounds, you know, figuring out how they got there and then so that you can help figure out where they're going. And so that , I ended up doing a lot of work in the divorce part of, you know, the financial part of divorce. That's kind of how I, I got into it . I feel like there are a lot of skills that financial counselors can learn from EFP professionals, and there's a lot of, there's definitely a lot that CFP professionals can learn from ASCs . It, it definitely put me in a position to where I was able to understand, I would call it the right way, or at least the right way to, to work with clients.
Speaker 2:You know, Mike, think that your experience with communication is not uncommon. I think a lot of times planners or anyone in financial services can get into it and recognize, like, I may know the technical side and I know how to calculate something, but do I really know how to communicate that at the end of the day? And that's really been a big pivot I think, for the industry. So recently, the CFP board has added financial psychology to its practice standards and tests. And this is a big shift in the industry, kind of help us figure out how this change is gonna affect not only the future of financial planning, but counseling, therapy as well. It's,
Speaker 3:It's really what we should have been doing. Um , and not just the CFP board, but the industry in general. It's what we should have been looking at for a long time. Uh , you know, when you're, there's a difference between, you know, people go to business school, they get degrees in finance, you learn all the calculations, you learn how to use your trust financial calculator, and then, you know, you think you're just gonna go fix problems. And that's fine. In corporate finance, it's fine. And because you want to give your boss the optimal answer. But when you work with people, it's personal finance, it's very personal, and you have to have that connection with people. I think, you know, more and more with technology advancing, you know, the less of the day-to-day, like the calculations, the, the estimations are gonna be done by software. Um, to act , to truly connect solutions to people's needs requires that human median . And if you don't have the financial psychology skills, then you know, you're, you're at risk of being irrelevant. Um, and so I think that it , as, as you know, people are , talk a lot about artificial intelligence and, and we're not, we're nowhere near what it seems like everybody keeps saying, but you know, there is, there is, we have software is continually improving and can make a financial planner's life more efficient. But the reality is, is the financial planning piece, the actual number crunching and idea generating is, while important is less time consuming than the actual connection with the person or couple or family that you're working with , uh, and you know, where are you gonna spend the bulk of your effort? You know, you're gonna sp spend the bulk of your effort learning things that , um, help you connect with your client where you're gonna spend the most of your time. And, you know, the the reality is, is solutions that you may see from the beginning, you know, that may not be even close to what somebody needs. Even things like, you know, people say they want , you know, when we talk about goals, you know, I think we run into what happens with people like goals , uh, goals, values, mis mismatch, where somebody might have a goal of retiring at 65, you know, that's an artificial construct. People just, they say that because they hear that, you know, that's when you're supposed to retire or that's when, you know, social security kicks in. So it's an artificial construct, but we don't know that that necessarily aligns with their values. And so if you just, if somebody comes in with their goals in mind, like, Hey, I've got my goals ready, I know what I want to do . And you have it determined as a financial planner and you haven't determined whether that actually aligns with their values. I mean, that can create a ton of pro downstream problems. So the psychology piece of it is getting to those true needs, getting to the, getting to the values of, of the couple, and then helping to resolve any of a couple , if it's a couple, resolving any conflicts between the couple. But then also for if it's just an individual, that person is probably conflicted inside. They have, you know, conflicts that those , those have to be resolved. And that requires a, somebody who understands the human condition and who can empathize and who can connect. Uh, and if you, and those are the skills that you learn in, in financial psychology, psychology and financial planning.
Speaker 1:In your current role as research director at CFP board, what are some of the things that you're looking into? Now? You mentioned that research lights you up. So what is lighting you up?
Speaker 3:The major project that we're working on here is the client, what we call the client impact study. And that's, you know, we don't know empirically whether what we do as financial planners actually improves the lives of people. We think it does. And you know, each financial planner will say, you know, at least anecdotally that they're probably improving the lives of clients. But, you know, there's, there are two things there. One is, are we having an impact? Are we having a positive i positive, meaningful impact? And then how do we measure it? You know, past studies attempt to look at it from a basis points perspective, right? So if, if, you know , yeah, if you provide X amount of services, your value as an advisor adds, you know , two to 3% to the total return on people's investments. And that's investments is, is one dimension. And it's, so, it's very one dimensional. And when we think about, you know, the benefits that financial planning can provide, it's so multi-dimensional. Um , you know, and you know, you do one thing in one direction that it affects something in three other directions and so on and so forth. And so you, you can't just look at it from an investment perspective. Now that, that part is important, I don't wanna dismiss that. Also, by the way, I don't wanna dismiss the technical skills that are required to be a financial planner. I still think that those are necessary. Um, but you know, investments are a big piece of it. But there are so many , you know, domains of financial planning include, you know, risk management, they include estate planning, you know, bequest intention and all of those. And then there are all the crisis events. There's divorce, there's premature death, there's all sorts of things that require pivoting and planning. So we have, we have the planning part, which is, you know, we know some things about, you know, what's deterministic like, we're gonna say, we're gonna do these things and then we'll have these outcomes. And then we have that random component that hits you from all directions. And so you can't just look at it from this investment perspective. And it would be great if we can quantify that value so that when we're having conversations with clients, I mean, the service that we provide is financial planners is , uh, often , uh, is very vague, right? It's, Hey, well we are providing you these things and it's gonna cost you x uh , and if I'm a client, you know, I want to know what the value is. And so that , that's the , that's the major important work we're doing. And then the idea is to look at it longitudinally. So we're not just, you know, taking a snapshot and happens to be a good year when we collect the data. We want to see how this evolves over time. How people as they move up the wealth chain or down the wealth chain for that matter, how it changes from the perspective of their wellbeing and their happiness across a number of dimensions. So we do wanna look at it objectively. We wanna look at the investments, we wanna look at retirement preparedness, insurance preparedness, et cetera . But we also want to examine those emotional , uh, good feeling components. And so that's, that's the big project. You know, I also, you know, really care about the efficacy of what we do. So, you know , an example would be one of the studies that I was working on prior to coming to CFP board was, we talk about emergency funds all the time, but do we have any evidence that they actually provide a much needed boost? We think they do. You know, it's , if you look at it, it seems to be the people who need the emergency funds can't really afford to create one. And the people who don't need, you know, who don't need the emergency funds, have an excess of money and they don't need to fund one either. So, you know, does it make sense from , from a financial planning perspective to, to do that? And, you know, there are a ton of other rules of thumb that we use that, you know, are they effective? Do they provide value to clients? Do they provide, you know, long-term financial resilience? And I think in a lot of cases we don't know the answer. We think we think we know. And in most cases it makes sense. You know , we use logic where we don't have evidence. And I think that that's fine for the time being, but it'd be really nice if we had a profession that was built on the evidence.
Speaker 1:What are some of the ways that you're measuring those emotional changes? So reduced stress or happiness, you know, it's often in research, it's quite easy to measure those, the numbers, but how are you, what are some of the ways that you're looking at those other metrics?
Speaker 3:It's still early stages. We actually just, you know, lo we had our first research team meeting last month. We meet every week now. And one of the things that we're, like you said, it's really easy. We know the objective measures, but the <laugh> , but the hard part is, okay, well how are we going to, first of all, what are the, you know, what are the expected outcomes that, that a client should have? And then, you know, how, how can we measure that? I mean , there is , there is a happiness index that we could, you know, draw from, there's financial, well , you know, financial wellbeing, gae that we can draw from, from , uh, CFP B'S definition. So there's a lot of different ways we can go about measuring that. Uh , but you know, a lot of this is, it boils down to how somebody feels about, you know, the relationship has value, right? The planner client relationship has value. So how do we measure the value there? Um, you know, one of the things we're looking at is trust. One of our researchers, Dr. Emily cus she said that it , it sticks with me now cuz she just, it was so profound. She said, you know , when, when , um, when volatility exists, trust becomes fragile. And I thought that's just really say , if you think about it over time, you know, there's always , you know, we have so many volatile events that happen in our lives. And if you, if you don't have that strong trust upfront , you know, that can be a problem. And that can be a , you know , that could result in a poor outcome. So a client could not believe what you say and then, you know, make a poor financial decision and then they have a , you know, a worse outcome. So, you know, trust is a component. So we're, we're thinking through all the different components of what would be, you know , impactful from an outcome perspective.
Speaker 2:So, Mike, I know from a researcher standpoint, there's so many researchers right now shaking their heads and agreeing, but I would want you to help me understand, from a practitioner standpoint, or maybe someone who doesn't understand why research is so foundational to financial services, can you help explain why we need research and why this is so important to the success of our industry as a whole?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think the first, this is, this sounds like, like I, I pulled it out of a , you know, a , a , uh, a sayings book, but you know, you can't build a profession on anecdotes. Uh, and that's, that's kind of what we do, right? We, you know, Hey, I have this client and this thing worked for them, and so I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna , I'm gonna use that with my next client. Um, or I heard x and that means I need to , I need , we , you know , uh, this is, I'm gonna give you just an example cuz I think it, it makes sense. I saw somebody yesterday said something about they wanted to, I'm not gonna call the person out by name, but because I think their intention is good, they only wanna work with people in their fifties who are , you know, into a specific type of exercise because the, and why do they wanna help them plan? Because they're gonna live longer. But the funny thing about that is, is that for the most part, if you're gonna live longer than average, it's not epigenetic. It has to do with your genes. So your genes are gonna help you live longer. So doesn't, almost doesn't matter what sort of exercise program you have, <laugh> . So intention was good, but you know, he's basing his practice off of, of faulty information. Uh , and so what you really wanna be looking at is, okay, well what are the factors that, you know, affect retirement outcomes? What are the factors that , uh, you know, will, you know, encourage somebody to save? How can we motivate people? So like, you know, for example, from psychology standpoint, because those are the things that are gonna lead to those, those better outcomes. And if you don't have the, the data to back it up, you're basically just shooting from the hip. And you don't know, like something may have worked for a specific person and there may be some variable that you haven't considered. You think it's you, you think it's your, you think it's your intervention, but there's prob there may be other factors. And so that's really why it's important to research it because you may do something, this is where it can be dangerous. Like you could do something for a different person and then your outcome could be completely flawed. Um , and then you're trying to figure out why it is maybe you , and then, you know, maybe you end up losing the client, maybe they end up, you know, having, you know, poor financial outcomes. So you wanna have research so that it's, you know, that you, you can guide your clients in the right way. That's specific. That's why, and I think this is really important for, you know, people say, well, you can't use, a lot of people will say, well, you can't use research for your clients because it's all personal. You know, everybody's situation is different, but that's exactly why you need research, because there are gonna be some commonalities between people that will give you, you know, a, you know, a better picture on how you should guide them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pivot and you shouldn't consider their individual very, very individual circumstances. But you know, it's really, you wanna start with, you wanna start with the evidence, right? So it's, it's incredibly , it can be dangerous if you don't use it. Uh , and it can be really helpful if you do use it.
Speaker 1:Mike, what advice would you give to students or career changes who are wanting to build a solid footing in this field? Whether it be financial planning or financial counseling, you know, they wanna help people and they wanna build strong relationships. Where should they start?
Speaker 3:Well get some relationship skills first. I think <laugh> , um, I know don't, don't just, don't just look at the numbers. I think listening is the key talk . You know, listen more than you talk. I think that is really helpful. Try to, you know, come up with, I mean, if you're trying to build a connection, try to find a way to provide value that's not necessarily, you know, what you're , I mean, I hate to say what you're selling, but it's not necessarily what you're selling because anytime you provide value, there's usually some sort of exchange of value. Maybe you feel better about it, but in general that person's gonna feel better about it. They're gonna be more predisposed to you, they're listening to you and taking your advice. Um , I think, you know, talk to people. I would suggest following, you know, some of the major , um, well listen to this podcast, <laugh> probably pretty helpful, especially this episode. <laugh> , um, Uh , you know, the FBA FPA has a lot of really good podcasts on the subject cuz you get to hear a lot of stories of how people got started and you get to hear a lot of stories about, you know, some of the problems that people have had to overcome, follow, you know, like, you know , even the major blogs Michael Kitsis blog, there's a lot of really good information in those things. And then, you know, see, practice and see what's gonna work for you. And what I found was, you know, what worked for me is, you know, just talking to people and having, you know, conversations long in-depth conversations where it wasn't , uh, it wasn't designed to be transactional. It was designed to learn , uh, it was designed to provide as much value that I could to, to the other person. You know, I think if anything, if the, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that there is a ton of value to human connection. And, you know, having that, that that connection , um, and learning how to connect with people and providing, being, you know, even being vulnerable and providing some of yourself to, to other people, the whole is, is greater than the sum of the parts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually, this is not unfounded. In fact, psychology, you'll know. Well, Mike Carl Rogers, who focused on person-centered therapy even said that the relationship between the therapist and the individual is gonna be the biggest indicator for change in the client. And I think that easily can be applied to financial planning. The relationship between you and your clients is gonna be the biggest indicator of change for them in the future as well. So it's mostly about relationships and how to improve those relationships. That's great points. Mike. At the end of each interview, we ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice to leave our listeners, what would it be?
Speaker 3:I kind of get beaten up about this a little bit, but I think <laugh> , my advice is to dream big, start as big as you can and then start to, you parret down. So don't start with, I can't do that. Start with anything's possible. The caveat that you're gonna do that, but you're going to start looking at , you're gonna look at it critically. And, and I would say early in my life, I was very much a dream big and anything as possible sort of thing. And you know, I I would say, you know, failing helped with that. Mm-hmm . <affirmative>, but it would be better, or at least maybe you would have a quicker route to success if you dreamt big. But then started thinking about it critically invited others to provide their feedback. Feedback is huge for life. And so, you know, people that you trust to do that. But, but dreaming big start there. Don't start with it can't be done.
Speaker 1:Mike, something you mentioned offline, that circles back to that idea of dreaming big, is the idea that everyone can be a researcher and you really have that lens, you know, even with the big dreams, it's, you know, taking a step back, asking the important questions, and most importantly asking for feedback, not working in a vacuum. And, and when we do those things, you know, when we're intellectually curious and we ask the questions and we use our listing skills, that's when those big dreams become reality.
Speaker 3:That's true . You said it better than I could.
Speaker 1:<laugh>, I don't know about that. Well, Mike, for our listeners of the show, tell us where they can connect with you.
Speaker 3:Well, so I am on LinkedIn, happy to connect with anybody really. You know , you can email me at my CFP board , uh, email address. I also do some, some travel. In fact, I'm giving some psychology of financial planning CE in May. It'll be in Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Nashville.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks Mike.
Speaker 3:No problem. Thank you
Speaker 2:Rachel. I really appreciate having Mike on. I think it's really important we talk about research and I love his perspective from such a global level that he's able to explain not just why his research is important, which I , I think he did a great job on , but mostly why research is been foundational for our entire industry to be able to start with that evidence-based practice. He said a couple of things that really resonated with me. One was you have to start with the evidence. And I thought he gave a great example of what happens when you're only built on anecdotal. I know from some of the worlds that I've come from, it's the examples are, well, that's how everyone does it. And that's not necessarily true. I think it's really important that that research is pivotal to inform better decision making for us as a whole on an industry level and us as individuals in practice or in counseling with clients. And then he talked a lot about the importance of relational skills, which just made me so happy and excited from a financial counseling point of view, because that's what we do. That's what we excel at, right? And that's what I think is so important to talk about more because not all CFPs know these skills. And I think that that marriage between an AFC and a cfp, which he discussed is vital to be able to give holistic advice and be able to understand the relational side just as much, if not more than you understand even the technical advice. He even said it, most of the work's gonna be done by computers or AI in the future, but those relationships can't be replaced. And that's what really makes you human. It's the human side of advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Mary , I agree. And he brings such a unique lens as a researcher too, because he has that research background, but he has the practical experience in the field. And so, and he's gone through the AFC program, you know, he's been a C F P and he's seen a lot of those foundational skills around listening and empathy and understanding those counseling skills that are so critical when working with a client. Personal finance is not one size fits all , but there are so many things that we can learn to build those threads to better support our clients. Hopefully we will hear again from Mike in the fall with the A F C P E symposium. For those who are listening today , uh, the invitation to present is open. And so we encourage you whether you have research or practical applications or initiatives that are working to visit af cpe.org . Submit a presentation for the symposium and join us this November in New Orleans.