"Don't let fear and hesitation hold you back."
This week's guest is two-time Olympian and financial coach, Keturah Orji (“K.O.”). Keturah is a decorated Track and Field athlete, who is balancing the pursuit of her athletic dreams with studying for the AFC and building a financial coaching practice.
Keturah is as authentic as she is driven. We talk about why she became a financial coach, what led her to the AFC, and how she finds balance. She shares advice for other AFC candidates and entrepreneurs. And we get to learn about her big 3 philosophy, the starting point she gives all of her clients, no matter where they are in their financial journey.
If you have big goals, or are balancing multiple priorities (aren't we all?), then this episode is for you.
Show Notes:
2:00 What led Keturah to pursue financial planning
3:52 Balancing athletic and career aspirations
7:59 Balancing training, work, and life
8:55 Training for the 2024 Olympics
11:01 How traveling has helped influence her teachings
11:58 "KO's Big Three"
13:17 Some of Keturah's challenges
15:39 Applying her athletic lessons to finance
17:10 Tips for those also trying to reach goals
19:52 Keturah's final two cents
Show Note Links:
Connect with Keturah on
Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!
Want to support the podcast? We love partnering with organizations that share our mission and values. Download our media kit.
"Don't let fear and hesitation hold you back."
This week's guest is two-time Olympian and financial coach, Keturah Orji (“K.O.”). Keturah is a decorated Track and Field athlete, who is balancing the pursuit of her athletic dreams with studying for the AFC and building a financial coaching practice.
Keturah is as authentic as she is driven. We talk about why she became a financial coach, what led her to the AFC, and how she finds balance. She shares advice for other AFC candidates and entrepreneurs. And we get to learn about her big 3 philosophy, the starting point she gives all of her clients, no matter where they are in their financial journey.
If you have big goals, or are balancing multiple priorities (aren't we all?), then this episode is for you.
Show Notes:
2:00 What led Keturah to pursue financial planning
3:52 Balancing athletic and career aspirations
7:59 Balancing training, work, and life
8:55 Training for the 2024 Olympics
11:01 How traveling has helped influence her teachings
11:58 "KO's Big Three"
13:17 Some of Keturah's challenges
15:39 Applying her athletic lessons to finance
17:10 Tips for those also trying to reach goals
19:52 Keturah's final two cents
Show Note Links:
Connect with Keturah on
Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!
Want to support the podcast? We love partnering with organizations that share our mission and values. Download our media kit.
Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast. We're leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel DeLeone, executive director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education for AF C P E.
Speaker 2:And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson, an accredited financial counselor or AFC and the president of Financial Behavior Keynote Group. Every episode we're taking a deep dive in the topics that personal finance professionals care about, helping clients, building community and your professional growth.
Speaker 1:Today's guest is Catora Orgy or ko. KO is an Olympic athlete. But what you may not know is that she is also the owner and founder of KO Financial Coaching, which has a mission of equipping individuals to understand and improve their financial health. A two-time Olympian Catura is known for opening a new era of greatness in the American triple jump. She is the first American since 1974 to win more than six consecutive US titles in the outdoor triple jump. And she finished fourth at the 2016 Olympic Games at the 2021 Olympic game. She became the first American woman in history to qualify for two consecutive Olympic finals in the triple jump. Even with her monumental athletic achievements, Kato is just as passionate about financial literacy and empowering individuals to make intentional financial decisions that align with their dreams, goals and values. Catora graduated with a degree in financial planning from the University of Georgia and is currently an accredited financial counselor or AFC candidate. Welcome Catora.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Catora, I have known about you from your UGA a days and I just kept hearing your name and I had to meet the legacy and it was just so humbling to meet you because in so many ways you have done incredible things but you're very authentic. And I wanna hear a little bit for our audience, kind of take us back and share it with us. Your path, not only what got you to uga, but what led you specifically to pursue a degree in personal financial planning? Well,
Speaker 3:Starting out from the beginning, I'm originally from New Jersey actually, so didn't really know about the University of Georgia or anything.<laugh>, yeah, about Georgia. Um, growing up and I got involved in track in high school and really excelled early on, like really without much coaching. I was able to uh, be really good at a lot of events. And so eventually I figured out that long jump and triple jump were my events and I was recruited to many schools. I visited uga, really loved it and decided to commit to Georgia and come study here. And then I was just taking a couple electives. So I feel like probably most people in college, you know, you always start out thinking like, I think I wanna major in this, but then when you start taking classes then your mind completely changes. Um, so I feel like I always wanted to major in criminal justice like growing up. But then um, as I took different classes and started to see the different requirements for each degree, I looked at the financial planning major and that really appealed to me and I didn't know much about finances. I took the intro to personal finance class and loved it. And um, I've always just been someone that kind of just saves my money. Like I didn't know anything else to save, save, save, don't go into debt. And so once I started learning everything in my classes at uga, that was when I really realized how much I didn't know and how much everyone else needed to know these things too. Like I was like, my parents don't know this, my siblings don't know this, my friends don't know this. I was like, everybody needs to know this. And so I feel like my passion really grew for personal finance as I continue to, to take the required classes for my degree. Mary
Speaker 1:Can probably speak more intentionally to this, but I do hear that from a lot of people that take their first intro to personal finance in college is this aha moment of everyone should know this. Why haven't I not learned this? Why am I just learning this now in college and how do I spread that word? You know, that bug is immediately caught. And so it's really interesting you now you're a professional track and field athlete and I can only imagine what your day-to-day life looks like as well. But what made you decide to start a financial coaching business, quote unquote in your spare time,<laugh><laugh>. And how has that looked as you balance your athletic and career aspirations?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I had heard about the A F C or like accredited financial counseling program through my professors at Georgia while I was still in school. And I remember looking it up, like doing research into it and I saw the required amount of hours needed and I was like, maybe I'll do that in the future. And then I feel like every year I just kept thinking about it, like maybe I should get my AFC certification out, like maybe I should get it now. And then I would look online and like review myself on like, what do I have to do? Like oh, take the exam, get the hours, and I was just like, hmm, I don't know if I can, I can handle it. And so eventually one day I um, saw an email from the A F C P E that said, um, there was like a, a specific scholarship and it was specifically for like black people and I think it was like covering like the study exam materials and um, just some different things there. And so once I saw that like, okay, the materials would be covered and I would have support around like trying to officially become certified, I was like, let me just apply for the scholarship and if it, if it's meant to be, then I will get the scholarship and I'll, I'll figure out a way to get this all done. And so pretty much I applied for the scholarship, I got it and I was like, okay, we're jumping in. And so I started studying, yeah, I got the materials, started studying for the exam, I think I took the exam. So I, I got the scholarship I think in January and I feel like I took the exam around June or July. Part of it I wasn't studying for cuz I was like in the bulk of training and then I really locked into the eight week, I think it's an eight week schedule that is handed out. And so I really locked into the eight week schedule and like committed to it and I was like, I'm just gonna sign, sign up for it. And I uh, I wanted to get the test over before World Champ last year World championships was in July and I was like I wanna just take the exam before then. So I'm pretty sure I took it in June so I would have it off my plate that
Speaker 1:Is spoken like a true student athlete,<laugh>, you know, how to, to schedule your time and to prioritize and to work around that. And you know, it's very interesting. We always tell people who are coming into the program like focus on taking that exam in the first six months. We give you three years because of the experiential hours and we understand people a lot of times they're working full-time, you know, in different ways, but really the most success is found when you prioritize that exam up front. So that's excellent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was very glad to get that over with. And then I, I just realized I didn't talk about my business at all. And so<laugh> actually before I started<laugh>, before I started the AFC exam or studying or any of that, I had started the business and that really was started because I kept talking to people, well first of all a lot of my friends would come to me for advice. I would like help my parents financial advice peers just consistently like the person that people would come to for financial advice. So I kept seeing like the need for it and then on top of that I saw some of my friends being like taken advantage of by different like sale, you know, like there's people like insurance sales or like the IUL sales. Like there's just so many different things that I'm like maybe that is something that you need to do but not yet. Like there's a whole bunch of other things you should do first. And so I just saw the need for trust, not only trustworthy financial advice but also affordable financial advice. Like not everyone is able to pay like an assets under management fee or has like assets that can be managed by investment firms. So I just cont to see the need and I really felt like God was telling me to go in that direction And so that's why I was like, I'm just gonna start the business and we'll see how it goes. And so I've been able to balance it cuz I just train in the mornings a lot. I'm able able to like meet with people in like the afternoons and evenings and I don't get like so many clients that it's like overwhelming. I just try to balance my time and yeah it's, it's been very exciting and really fulfilling to be helping people.
Speaker 2:Well you just answered a lot of my questions because I'm sitting here thinking how does she sleep, right? I know you have to, but how do you balance all that? But you really have set up a pretty strict schedule with yourself. Is, is that how you balance training work in life?
Speaker 3:Definitely. I feel like going back to like even when I was a young child that my parents never really just labeled us or identified us as our hobby. So like I was never just an athlete. Like my parents always valued me for like being smart too and being interested in many different things, not just my athletic success. And I think because they did that in life, I've always wanted to be so much more than my sport. I didn't wanna just go be an athlete and then people know me as the Olympic athlete but it's like I have so many other interests too. Like I enjoy reading, I enjoy helping me with their finances, I enjoy hanging out with my friends, I love board games. Like there's so many aspects to Korah. I don't wanna just be just be labeled as that successful athlete. And so I think that really pushes me like after practice I don't wanna just do nothing like I'm like I wanna go pursue my other interests too.
Speaker 2:Well Catora we do have to mention just how successful because I mean we all like to think we're successful but very few of us have ever trained at an Olympic level. And I do have to brag on you for a minute. You are currently training for the Paris 2024 Olympics, is that correct?
Speaker 3:Yes, I am<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. So tell us, what does it take to train for the Olympics? What kind of a schedule do you keep?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's gonna depend on each person and like their event, but specifically for me, so I usually train at like eight or eight 30 in the morning and that is like going to the track and on different days we'll do different things. So sometimes we'll have like some speed work, I'm just gonna be running down the track. Other days will have like very technical days so I'm like actually gonna be jumping into the sand pitt or working on like different technical things I need to for my jump to um, be the way I want it to on competition day. And then on top of that, so like let's say like eight 30 to 1130 ish is practice. Then after that I'll go lift. So I have to drive to the weight room but like probably like 12 to one 30 ish or 12 to two ish is when I'll be lifting. And I lift three times a week. So training is usually five to six times a week and lifting is three times a week. And so yeah, that's, that's really what it looks like. But I feel like the behind the scenes that no one really ever considers is like the fact that like you have to get enough sleep each night. Yeah, yes. You have to be eating the right foods, even like sacrificing your time. Like sometimes friends wanna like stay up late one night or they wanna go like, oh we're gonna go on trip to Florida. I'm like, well I don't wanna miss training. So there's like, there's like really small aspects that I think a lot of people don't consider when being an athlete. They just see like the training part. Um, so it's hard sometimes hard to balance like the life life and track<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've been talking a lot lately about authenticity and and being authentic in in the good and the bad because I think often we just look at it and be like wow, she's an Olympic athlete that's just amazing and assume you just got there. But I think what we're really hearing is the hard work it takes and that's true for owning your own business as well, right? Like it didn't just come to you overnight that you've really had to work at that to be able to make it successful.
Speaker 3:Yes, definitely. And the funny question I always get is like, do you work mostly work with athletes? And I was like no I al I almost never work with the athletes which is really funny. So.
Speaker 2:Well let me ask you a different question. You have traveled the world literally and I would love to know how has this helped influence the way that you practice and that you teach others in your business?
Speaker 3:Traveling the world just lets me see a lot of different perspectives and different lives. It helps me to be very grateful for who I am and just helps me to accept people for who they are And like even though people may have different ways to do things but doesn't make it wrong. And so really using that diversity to apply it to when I give advice to clients, like sometimes things that I've told other clients may not work on another client and you just have to be like really unique with the way you do things cuz each person is so different. But I also on top of that my dad is Nigerian. Um, as you can tell from my last name probably orgy, um, it means strong tree in the IBO language. Um, but my dad's a Nigerian so I also grew up in a home that wasn't probably a typical American home and doing things that a typical home would do. So I think I've just kind of been raised to really look at things from other people's perspectives and consider why that may work for someone else.
Speaker 1:Couture on your website you mentioned something called KO's big three which is the starting point for all of your clients no matter where they are in their financial journey, which had us curious what are the big three?
Speaker 3:So I get this a lot and I feel like people are expecting something fancy<laugh><laugh>. The reason that I brand<laugh>, the reason that I branded it like that is just when I communicate to clients that like no matter what their goals are, there are three things that you have to do no matter where you are in life and it's just kind of the foundation of like handling your finances. And so the first one is creating a budget and actually like revisiting it and checking in to see how you're doing compared to the budget that you've made. And a lot of people wanna skip this part and just wanna move on to like their goals, but I'm like, if we don't know where the money is going, we can't plan for the money. Like we, we have to see where it is and how much there is so that we can plan for all the goals you have. So budgeting's number one. Number two is emergency fund. Um, having three to six months of living expenses, that's another one that a lot of people wanna skip cuz they're just like, oh I, I have a little bit in savings, like I'd like to start doing X, Y, Z. And I'm like okay well we don't know what an emergency will happen so it's really important for us to start there. And the last one is paying off high interest debt. So that's usually like credit card debt or sometimes personal loans that just have a lot of weight on their finances and it may hold them back from accomplishing their goals too. So before I, no matter what anyone fills out the form on my website and says we're gonna start there
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Well that's great and I love that you have a process from the get-go. Sometimes business owners we, we sometimes forget that we just get excited and wanna start helping people and then we get overwhelmed cuz we don't have a process. So I think that's awesome. You know, as someone who is newer to the financial coaching space, I'll bet you have some stories that you could share with us about what some of the hurdles are that you've had to personally overcome when working with clients. The
Speaker 3:First one that's very broad is I think I always assume that like I'm gonna meet with a client, like I'm a very disciplined, consistent follow through type of person. The kind of athletes really are, you have to be that. And so when I envision like being a financial coach, I'm imagining like these people will come to me with their issues. I'm gonna like educate them, empower them, give them this information and we're gonna meet X number of times they're gonna go out and do it and this is gonna be so exciting. Like I can't wait to help<laugh>. But the reality of it is a lot of times like people come and we have like one session and then try to plan for the next session but then they can't make it and then sometimes they don't do what we discussed And just a lot of like<laugh>, a lot of it's just messier than you imagine. Like I imagine it to be like step one, step two, step three and we're good. But it's never like that and that's how life is too. Like you can make as many plans as you want in life but realistically like things are not gonna go as planned. So just getting clients to follow through on the action steps to me has been the hardest part. And I know that like I can't, that's not something I can control, but I just wanna be able to help them follow through on that so they can see the, the results of their hard work. So that's been something that I've struggled with. Another thing that I've struggled with is just doubting myself and doubting my expertise and that's really why I decided to do the AFC because I never really worked with client in college. I worked with clients a little bit but I just consistently had this thought of like, oh I don't know enough, like what if I can't help them? And so, um, I did have an older client that came to me for help with retirement planning. I I would say it's probably like about like seven years from retirement and I was really nervous cause I was like, this is like crunch time pretty much. Like I have to, I have to be right on cuz like if we make any mistakes then this won't be good. And so I was really nervous and I came up with a couple things to present to him for our first session and like in the middle of the session he stalk me and he was like, I've money to this for years. I'm so thank you so much for doing this, this just, this just makes me so happy. And like in that moment it was just so much reassurance of like, you are supposed to be doing this and you're doing it well, you need to be more confident ka Torah. And so, um, yeah that client that's like one of my favorite client experiences is just them reassuring me and how I was able to help them.
Speaker 1:And Kato, I don't think you're alone. I think a lot of times when people are starting off in this field, you know, every client you meet with is is different. And so it's really easy to doubt yourself and I do think that a lot of people come to the AFC for that reason to feel more confident in their recommendations, um, and and for some credibility as they're working with clients. And so you're certainly not alone. I'm curious as an athlete, are there lessons that you've learned that you also apply to your work as a financial coach? Whether that's for yourself and how you structure your business or if that's, you know, recommendations that you give your clients, you know, just in terms of your life experiences?
Speaker 3:That's a hard one. I I would say just the way I operate my business is very similar to how I I operate. Like when I'm out competing or out like doing the work every day, like I really value consistency. So like when I tell my clients I'm going to do something, I actually do it in the same way. Like a physical therapist may tell you like you need to do these exercises if you wanna get better. So when I tell my clients like Oh I'll make sure to send this over to you or make sure I'll follow up with you after this, I make sure to do that. Um, I'm consistent in reaching out to them and saying like, Hey, I know you said you wanted to meet again. Do any of these times work for you? I've updated my calendar. So I would just say most of the traits that I have within track and field also show up as with the consistency of in the way I run my business. And even like with the Instagram I made, I like to do money tip Monday at least once a month. So you'll see like I'm very consistent about like making sure I get a tip out at least once every month.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm so impressed with with you is you're just so disciplined in every area and facet of your life. And I think that's something that we all admire regardless of age is that the fact that you can really set your mind to something and achieve it. And so what is something that you would help our listeners if I know me personally and I'm sure several others out there struggle to keep our goals or things that we're gonna do. What are some tips you would have for those of us that are trying to reach our goals as well?
Speaker 3:I would say accountability is probably, probably like the easiest one to do. So like finding a friend or a person you know that like is really good with follow through and just have them hold you accountable to what you, you say. So like if you're like, I really wanna start a business this year, like you need to go tell someone that and you need to tell them like, would you feel comfortable like checking in on me in three months to see how I'm doing with that. Like just kind of checking in cuz my sisters and I, um, we felt like a manifesto on a Google, um, doc together and we check in quarterly to see how like we're doing with some of the goals we put on there. And so really I think I kind of, it's easy to say like I wanna do X, y, z. It's easy to say it first in your head, but then the second thing I would say is like, actually write it down and put it somewhere that you can see it. And then the third thing I would say is telling someone so that they can actually hold you accountable to what you said you're going to do. And feeling comfortable with people holding you accountable to the things you're you say you're going to do. Um, because I know growing up I think I got my discipline from my dad and you just know if he says he's gonna do something that he's actually gonna do it. And so I remember going to college thinking that that's how the world was<laugh> and
Speaker 2:Realizing<laugh> and
Speaker 3:Then realizing that people will say like, oh yeah, I can help you with this or I can do this. And then like never, never do it. And in my head I'm like, why should they say it if they couldn't do it<laugh>. And so that's been a a learning curve for me as I've grown up that like sometimes people will say things and and that doesn't mean they're going to do it.
Speaker 2:<laugh> you know. I have one more follow up to that. Sounds like your parents have been such a role model for you and I can only imagine what a role model you are for young women everywhere for young people everywhere and even old people like us or me. I won't put you in that same category, Rachel.
Speaker 1:We're like the same age parent,
Speaker 3:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:<laugh>, but I, I don't know, how does that influence your life? Does that ever add stress or pressure? What's it like to be a role model for others?
Speaker 3:I wouldn't say it adds pressure just because it's not a role that I have to play. I just see it as being authentic. Like just be 100% you show up as your best every day and that that's really what a role model is like. Those are the two things. And also like admitting to your mistakes you make and being up upfront about those mistakes and apologizing for those mistakes. I feel like as long as you're au authentic then there's not really a reason to put pressure. Like there's, I I would be doing the same thing whether people would be watching me or not. So yeah. So I feel like that's what kind of takes the pressure off of me.
Speaker 1:Couture at the end of every interview we always ask our guests to share their 2 cents. If you had one piece of advice to leave with our listeners, what would it be? There's
Speaker 3:Two pieces of advice for different listeners. All right. So yeah, the first one is for people listening to this and considering becoming an afc, I really want to encourage them to like take this as a sign to start the process because I let it, I let the fear of like the hours and the exam really hold my, hold me back. But I know that now that I've made it over the hump that I can do it and I know that you can do it too. So if you like the, the cost is holding you back, look out for any scholarships that A F C P E has and then um, just don't let that fear and hesitation hold you back. Like if this is what you're supposed to be doing, then everything will work out for um, how it's supposed to. And then on the other hand, to anyone who's listening to this and is a business owner or like in a position of power, I would just love if you could provide more opportunities for people who are career changers or can only work part-time. Cuz specifically for me, what I struggle with is, um, I still have time in the day to work, but I can't do full-time work and I'm also not someone that has a whole bunch of experience in financial planning already. And so I think if there are more opportunities for people to get experience hours, they may feel more confident starting the program up. And it also helps me to feel more comfortable applying the knowledge and advancing my career if I know that there are opportunities for me available even while I pursue this track and field career. So, uh, I would love to see more opportunities available for people like me.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And I would echo that, you know, even as, as a mom I homeschool, I have three kids at home, I need flexible opportunities as well. And so I think it's so interesting as a female especially how as caregivers or in your case as athletes, there really needs to be that flexibility and that acceptance that it, you're welcome here, right? Regardless of everything else you're juggling, in fact applauding you for everything else you're juggling because it really is amazing and you really are an inspiration to so many others. So thank you for paving the path forward and thank you so much for being on the show today. Can you tell our listeners where they can connect with you?
Speaker 3:Yes, sure. So I have a Twitter and it's my first and last name at K E T u r a H o R J I. And then I have an Instagram at K t o r R one, and then my financial Instagram is K O f I n coach. So that, those are all different but hopefully they'll be in the description box. Uh,
Speaker 2:We'll do it podcast. Thank you again for joining us and we appreciate you being on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this
Speaker 1:Mary. It was such a treat to have couture on today and I'm a little biased. I have a background in track and field, not anywhere close to the caliber that she does<laugh>. Uh, but on this side I follow track and, and running and field athletes and just what a pleasure to, to pick her brain and to learn more about the balance. I really loved some of the tips that she gave as an athlete and working in this space. She brings really a unique lens, just the way she values consistency and accountability and there's some great nuggets of knowledge in this episode, even as a young financial coach. One of the things that she discussed a little bit, and I think it's so valid, is just this kind of call out to employers to provide opportunities that aren't full-time. Whether that's experience, whether that's jobs, you know, that the field itself and the landscape of employment itself is constantly evolving. And so how do we provide opportunities, whether it's for AFC candidates or working moms or Olympic athletes, you know, to be able to, to move and grow along with the field. And so A F C P E does offer an experienced portal for those who are interested in helping AFC candidates get their hours. And we encourage you to visit our website and if you have a need for volunteers and paid positions, but we have a number of really fantastic people just like catora that are looking for hours. And so I just encourage employers out there to, to reach out and see how you can support.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And I think that's something that A F C P E does so well is make that connection for work experience and employers to come together because it, it really is hard when you are obviously she's very busy. I am just so amazed at her. Can we just say that like she is such an impressive person and I, and twice her age and not half as disciplined, I'm sitting there listening to her training schedule, thinking it's hard for me to get on a treadmill for 20 minutes a day<laugh> like, and here she is just doing incredible things. So I really applaud her. I think that was funny to her when she said that she went to college and realized not everybody follows through<laugh>. And I was like, wow. She really did come from a discipline side and it made me feel good as a mom to realize how much influence you can have on your own kids. Cuz her parents obvious have had a tremendous influence on her. I think there were two parts for me, two words that stuck out with me, with her. Both start with an A and one is authenticity. She is just authentic and down to earth. I think that's the, the guy that said, wow, I didn't realize how much, you know, it's because she's so authentic and she really tries. And then the other one is accountability. I am telling you discipline and accountability go hand in hand. And I thought that was a really interesting concept when she said, find someone that you're accountable to. I know in my life, mastermind groups and good people that I can be accountable to and check in have done tremendous wonders for me and have pushed me further than I would've ever gone alone. And so I think that's a good shout out for any of you practitioners out there, whether you've got your own solo practice or if you're in more of an organizational setting, but maybe you're the only financial counselor in the whole organization. Reach out, get a mentor and even peer to peer type situation to where you are being accountable to someone and you're helping and seeing each other grow. It's a great experience and it's also a growing experience and I was really impressed with how much she's grown through accountability
Speaker 1:To everyone listening today. Just a reminder to save the date, the A F C P E symposium is gonna be held this year in New Orleans, Louisiana, November 29th through December 1st. And right now we have an invitation to present open and we encourage anyone who is in research or practice to apply to present this November. And join us in New Orleans for the 2023 A F C P E Symposium.